[jetpilot718]

The other day, I noticed something while driving my father's MB E500 sedan. When I got on it, and the auto box finally selected the correct gear, the car completely hauls ass. Enough so, that I wondered why my Z doesnt feel as fast.

On paper, the Z should be faster than the E500. Here's the figures for this little comparison..

E500:
Bore 3.82 / 97
Stroke 3.31 / 84
Compression Ratio 10.0:1

Displacement
E500: 303 / 4,966

Horsepower E500: 302 @ 5,600

Maximum engine speed: 6,000 rpm

Torque: E500: 339 @ 2,700-4,250

Weight: 3815lbs (curb weight)


So why is it that when I drive the E500 at WOT, I get this feeling like the world is coming to an end? TORQUE.

In the 1/4 mile, the Z should edge out the E500. I've never raced one while in the other, but there is such a dramatic difference in the feeling you get in your gut while accelerating in the E500.

The obvious question, how can we get higher torque numbers in our Z's?? Has anyone here avoided the fixation on HP and looked towards torque?

 

[NourZ]

03 E500 1/4 mile is 14.3s not far from a Z.

I've noticed that feeling in most automatic cars, Mustang GT auto they break my nick and feel faster than the manual, Grand Prix GTP does the same.

I think it's the delayed reaction of the automatic transmission, usually takes 1-2 sec for the auto tranny to shift down, and because you don't know when exactly is it shifting down it kinda hits you by surprise.

In manual cars we rarely shift down two gears but auto do, I think thats why it feels so much faster

 

[zlegend]

[/quote]

Its been a while since I've been in an auto, but if I remembe right, they stall a bit just before switching to a lower gear as well, so when the gear finaly kicks in you get jolted back a bit.

 

[FairladyZX]

So this the same as "turbo lag"!

 

[bio911]

that car has a lot of tq... when is something you feel especially on a car that has a good tq curve all the way up into high rpms.

 

[LeMansEAKZ]

Torque makes you accellerate, HP keeps you there.

V's have more torque than inlines, bigger V's have more torque than smaller V's. Not much you can do about the inherrent qualities of a certain engine layout, and displacement can only do so much.

What I am getting at is that a good V8 (or V10 or V12) will have more torque than a similar sized V6 every time and both will have more than an inline 4 or 6 even if the displacement is similar.

That is why an S2000 with mods to 300 HP still cannot out run a Z (V6) - the design of the inline engine creates less torque regardless of whether it can pull the same HP numbers. And this also why a E500 feels faster than a Z, more torque.

And of course the flatter the torque curve is the better (eg: not peaky).

HP is not the necessarily the answer for a street car folks. Torque is king!

 

[bio911]

hmm i just read my reply.. made a little sense but yeah.. hmm i think i was with a customer or something at the time..

 

[redneck truck]

If you want to make your car feel faster, just get some shocks that don't do their job - then, the car will rock back when you punch it, plant the rear tires, and your car will FEEL very fast. Thats why my 93 nissan pickup (134hp, 16.0 1/4 mile) FEELS so fast - the shocks are blown and it squats like **** when you punch it. And a note to those who were discussing horsepower and torque earlier in the thread, here is some required reading:

http://vettenet.org/torquehp.html

The article states that horsepower is a derivation of torque and rpm, nothing more. This means that if you make 400hp, whether it is at 1800 rpm (with tons of torque) or 18000 rpm (with barely any torque), you will accelerate at the same rate, assuming the same weight. Another interesting fact about torque and horsepower: examine the dyno graph of any engine that revs above 5252rpm and you will notice that the torque and horsepower curves will ALWAYS cross at exactly 5252rpm, no exceptions. This is because horsepower = (torque X rpm)/5252, so torque = hp at 5252. ...the article is very interesting and contains a lot of cool analogies, examples, and facts. Read the whole article and be enlightened, and never again embarrass yourself by saying things like "torque is what you feel, horsepower is how fast you go", etc. hope this helps!

 

[LeMansEAKZ]

I chose not to get technical as my comments were geared towards those not in the know but there are accurate.

Of course there is lots more to what I was trying to convey. No dount. But you added facts that mean little in the explanation of perceived power, WHICH WAS THE TOPIC. Furthermore, your comments towards me show no class or respect and this may be why you are at post number 4. You imply that to make a car faster you just manipulate a formula. Sure buddy, tell me how it is. Enlighten me. You missed the point entirely and did so like a real azzhole.

And to top if off you misquoted me. I said torque makes you accellerate and HP keeps you there. This is still true, unlike what you CLAIM I said.

The reading you link to may very well be full of info, no problem there, but when you have something to say, attacking a member, particularly one with much more seniority (and possibly age and schooling) that you is not the way to go. This site is for intelligent conversation, not name calling and flaming.

I appreciate your attempt at adding to the thread but please show some class or go elsewhere.

 

[DiRN]

Originally posted by LeMansEAKZ@Jun 28 2005, 03:02 PM
I chose not to get technical as my comments were geared towards those not in the know but there are accurate.

Of course there is lots more to what I was trying to convey. No dount. But you added facts that mean little in the explanation of perceived power, WHICH WAS THE TOPIC. Furthermore, your comments towards me show no class or respect and this may be why you are at post number 4. You imply that to make a car faster you just manipulate a formula. Sure buddy, tell me how it is. Enlighten me. You missed the point entirely and did so like a real azzhole.

And to top if off you misquoted me. I said torque makes you accellerate and HP keeps you there. This is still true, unlike what you CLAIM I said.

The reading you link to may very well be full of info, no problem there, but when you have something to say, attacking a member, particularly one with much more seniority (and possibly age and schooling) that you is not the way to go. This site is for intelligent conversation, not name calling and flaming.

I appreciate your attempt at adding to the thread but please show some class or go elsewhere.

[snapback]123416[/snapback]​

Whoa there. This kind of stuff should be handled through PMs, not a public forum. And there's no reason for any member to pull rank on another member.

 

[LeMansEAKZ]

Not pulling rank just defending. Sorry to offend. If I am attacked in public I think it is only fair to defend in public.

Seriously I meant no harm. I love this forum and I just assumed it was safe and fair to defend myself, particularly in light of my kind comments about the site and its members. I guess not.

 

[redneck truck]

I am often told I come off like a prick, have no people skills, etc. I tend to be trite, sarcastic, and facetious, and I guess it comes off as rude. Now that everybody knows, i hope you all will understand that i meant nothing personal by what i said, and i wasn't attacking anyone. I only have 4 posts on here, but only because I haven't been here very long. I am not new to forums; only this one. I have never seen a clause in the rules of a message board that grants privelege and respect based on seniority and tenure - that would just be silly. The most valuable people on a forum only had 3 or 4 posts at one time or another, and they were no less valuable than at their 30,000th post. I have over a thousand posts on a few forums and I deserve no more or less respect than the day I signed up.

And, as I didn't read the forum's rules before i signed up, I can only assume there is a clause in there about posting incorrect information. In the event that a user posts what i find to be inaccurate or incomplete (not saying anything about anyone, don't worry), I will correct them to prevent any misunderstanding, because people post assumptions on forums and they tend to spread like wildfire. on nissanforums.com, every time somebody posted about a ka24de head swap on a ka24e block, they got a host of replies saying "that can't be done, the gaskets are totally different, the bolts dont line up, etc.". Then, somebody proved eeeverybody wrong by DOING the swap, or by at least bolting it together. I never caught up with them to see if it actually ran, but the fact that it bolted together and all the oil galleys and coolant passages and bolts lined up, and the head gaskets looked essentially the same, goes to show that people on forums can be wrong, and assumptions are contagious, and as such, should be avoided.

I hope my addition to a thread, one that i thought to be valuable, did not come off as a flame, but if it did, let me explain. The stiffness of a suspension absolutely can affect the "seat-of-the-pants" feel of power, with my firebird formula as proof. i went with poly bushings, boxed steel links, stiffer shocks, hotchkis non-progressive drop springs, subframes, and 18x10" wheels with 285/35/zr18 pilot sport tires, and the car felt MUCH slower, although it handled like it was on rails. A lot of mercedes, even some of the AMG series, tend to have soft suspensions for the every day driver (with low skidpad numbers as proof), and will therefore feel faster, just because of the aforementioned "g" effect.

I am going to leave the horsepower/torque discussion alone as the article I posted speaks for itself. Logic can not argue with emotion, so I see no point in arguing. If anybody is interested, read the article and you will see why I thought the previous posts (as well as most posts regarding horsepower and torque) were in error. That is all. Thanks in advance for understanding, and I hope I didn't offend anyone else.

- Bryan

 

[DiRN]

Originally posted by LeMansEAKZ@Jun 28 2005, 04:52 PM
Not pulling rank just defending. Sorry to offend. If I am attacked in public I think it is only fair to defend in public.

Seriously I meant no harm. I love this forum and I just assumed it was safe and fair to defend myself, particularly in light of my kind comments about the site and its members. I guess not.

[snapback]123525[/snapback]​

I think the problem is that people sometimes assume they're being attacked on forums when, in fact, they aren't. I didn't take his post as an attack on you, but you did. Typed communication leads to different interpretations. That's why I think it's best to solve it through PMs. Attacking each other in the forum has a greater potential for making things worse

 

[LeMansEAKZ]

No harm no foul

Maybe I was having a bad day.

 

[Domino]

my C43 feels a fair bit quicker than my Z too, yet in reality over the 1/4 the Z is quicker

they have around the same hp and weight, but the AMG has more torque, and combined with the auto box thats what makes it feel quicker

the Z to me just doesnt feel quick, but when i change lines and give it a little throttle and see ive gained 30km/h thats when i know the feeling is not the reality

i jump in my mates modded WRX and that thing feels super quick, its loud, the gears (1st to 2nd especially) snap and shunt like crazy, and the whole car pitches back n forth on/off throttle on its soft springs and SUV ride height. But when we lined up for a roll on at 60km/h i just pulled away in 2nd

 

[ArfaLomeo]

You need an air horn that plays LaCuccaracha TPIACE. Some beltpads and some footwell neons. You will feel like a king.