http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=278476
Originally posted by kaneda
i think the 4G63's days are numbered. it's been around quite some time and mitsubishi has been talking of replacements the last few years and even going so far as to say they should build a hybrid 4 cylinder for future evos. there really isn't "a next big import engine", besides maybe the K series hondas.
most engines aren't built for boost, everyone is going NA.
- the VQ won't hold power
- the renesis is a pain in the *** to turbo and we've yet to see how well it holds power
- the EJ25 has seen 500+ awhp stock block but being based on old technology i wouldn't call it new and i wouldn't expect it to be around much longer
- the C32B is much the same except it's expensive to turbocharge and expensive to rebuild if something goes wrong
- the 4UZ-FE responds okay to boost but that's on it's way out and it's not in any performance car to begin with
- i doubt the mazdaspeed mazda 6 will withstand much boost
- the mazdaspeed turbo mx-6 is a joke
and there's still the proposition of the next generation SR20DET, the "SR20VET" or whatever they choose to call it. the silvia platform will be resurrected and i don't doubt that it will be turbocharged. also, mazda has been rumored to be building a 4th generation RX-7 on the RX-8 platform and as electricoptik mentioned, the 2007 GT-R. who knows what's around the corner. :dunno:
but for now - there is no big import engine.
Originally posted by JUNIOR
In stock form, I don't think there is very much potential at all. Those limits are being pushed everyday. Aluminum open deck blocks don't like boost very much at all. Like every new motor out, things will change. Things will be tested and new tuning methods will arise. At first these motors are said to let go over the 400rwhp mark. The rods are the weakest point in the bottom end with the help of the open deck of course. But, now these motors are handling 550rwhp in stock form. I rememebr when making 600rwhp in the 2JZ was big deal. Now everyone realizes that the stock block can take upwards to the 1k mark. How things have changed. With that being said. I don't think that the VQ35DE will ever be as strong as the 2JZ in "stock" form. Iron Solid Deck -vs- Aluminum Open Deck. Doesn't take a genius to figure that one out. Seriously for the guys that are doing FI now days. Does stock even matter? I think that the VQ35DE motor is GREAT motor for RACE applications. There is lots of aftermarket support for it. We had to wait years for a stroker kit to be released for the 2JZ. The VQ35DE already has a stroker motor. Thanks to AEBS! Now on to the potential of this motor in "Built" form. Replace the stock rods and sleeve that bad boy. That will surely put you in the 2JZ ballpark with .5L more dispalcement. More Torque. And also being a Aluminum block great for weight savings, especially in the Race cars. Also with the motors being used in all types of cars (350z,G35,Maxima, Altama) Keeps the cost down comes down replacing the engine and easier to find. Only difference is engine mount locations. (RWD/FWD). I am all for new things as I have owned my Supra for over 7 Years, and 4 other MKIV TT's. I am truly a 2JZ supporter. I am also a supporter of the VQ35DE, since I know own a G35 coupe as a one of my daily drivers. A car which I will be putting under the knife very shortly. We have 7-8 sec street spec Supras. There are also low 8 sec. street spec VQ35DE's. We have been at this struggle for more power for years now. Lots of R&D involved. This motor is New compared to ours. Yet the gains are there. Nothing surprises me any more. 500+ Hp out a Scion for good sakes. It's all the same. Great selection of components- Great Builder- Great Tuning. You can make power with anything. But, I'd say the VQ35DE will be one the contenders for the Import Scene. I myself will be pushing these limits of this motor myself. Good Luck to everyone who is on the search for more power. "Too much is NEVER enough!" Happy Boosting to All. Now if we get into NA cars vs Turbos discussion please keep me posted.
Keith Ta
[email protected]
WWW.SPEEDFORCERACING.COM
Originally posted by 97Turbo
3.5-litres of high-compression naturally aspirated V6 power can go a long ways when an engine is built well, and the VQ 3.5 is indeed built well for it's purpose. It doesn't have the high-rpm response of a Honda powerplant, instead having the low rpm grunt that is usually found in large American motors, rev limit is about 6600rpm. In fact it's quite a bit more liveable than the RB26DETT inline-six in the GT-R, which has problems with making it's presence known until you've reached a rather high 3000rpm (lower compression)(just a reference). Of course, that motor continues on till 8000rpm, so the operative rpm range is rather similar, but it's inherently more satisfying to have power at 1000rpm instead of waiting till 3000rpm for it to come on.
"The winners of Ward’s 10 Best Engines awards for 2005 demonstrate that you can have it all: Many of the winning engines highlight sophisticated new technology that not only improves mileage but also pumps up power."
"Taking its unrivaled 11th consecutive 10 Best Engines trophy is Nissan Motor Co. Ltd.’s 3.5L DOHC V-6. The only engine to win an award every year since the program’s inception, Nissan engineers improved the “VQ” V-6 with new levels of power and torque for 2005."
"Needless to say, the acquisitions of Ioannou and Ten definitely showed in the constant improvement of the Performance Motorsport 350Z. The shocking improvement from its respectable 11-second passes to a blistering 8.33 ET at 176.72mph simply doesn’t happen naturally within a single season. The Performance Motorsport team truly means business.
Ten, the team’s newest member, was handed the VQ35DE in hopes he could build it for the rigors of quadruple-digit horsepower. Famous for his record breaking Pro Street Tire Toyota Supra, Ten is highly regarded as one of the sport’s best engine builders. The East Coast legend was excited to join the team and eager to work on Nissan’s 3.5L powerplant.
First off, the intake charge is chilled via the massive front-mounted Spearco intercooler before it is sucked through the four-inch Accufab throttle body.
As the only team campaigning a VQ35DE-powered 350Z at this level, much of the work done on this vehicle was groundbreaking. The 3.5L block was fortified with the addition of Ross pistons, Total Seal rings and beefy Carillo rods, while team member Mike Silvestri fabricated the custom girdle to work with the Z’s stock crankshaft. Ten’s impeccable headwork optimizes the Nismo camshafts and maximizes flow of the twin-turbocharged system.
Forced induction comes in the form of a pair of secret-spec Turbonetics turbochargers which are fed through the integrated air ducts in the Z’s front bumper. The twin turbines are fitted to matching STK manifolds which spit the spent gases through a custom Performance Motorsport exhaust system. Boost creep is kept to a minimum thanks to the Turbonetics external wastegate.
Control is provided by the all-encompassing Motec M800 engine management system with CDI box. Using a very capable system like the Motec is one thing, but having someone with the skills of Ioannou to install, wire and tune it is a luxury no other team has. Control over the entire system including timing, custom fuel system, RC injectors and HKS plugs are the responsibility of the standalone ECU. And with a full season of tuning under his belt, Ioannou and the team has the Z dialed in to produce over 1,200whp on Performance Motorsport’s in-house Mustang Dyno." - This was taken from an article a while back, this is to show what a modified VQ ENGINE can do with the proper R&D, etc.
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---- Bare in mind I'm only comparing the below to the 2JZ ----
the VQ is a decent motor, for modifed purpose's it's show all though still fairly new compared to a 2JZ that it does have some potential.
But if you want to compare Modified to Modified, just look at the Track results, records set by various cars, and what motors there running. In this case it's easy to say the 2JZ has been a big performer for the past few years. Also look at the number of teams running the 2JZ platform as well.
Street to Street: both we designed for different purposes.
V6 3.5 NA vs 3.0 turbo I6 this is an obivous difference...
But for the most part, there two completely different motors, designed for different purposes as well.
The 2JZ has been tried, and proved over, and over again, with excellent results. There aren't many motors out there that be as reliable with big HP, stock internals. Once you start modifing.
I've done a turbo install on the VQ, and it does bump performance to a point, but there's no way you could reliably turn up the boost and make some good power without some major modifications to the motor... Mainly lowering compression, and providing better / stable fuel delivery, but those are still considered major mod's in comparasion to what's needed to be done to make the 2JZ perform as well as it does.
I would have to agree, that the VQ modified would not be a desirable street motor compared to other motors out there that can perform for far less. Down the road when more is avaliable in terms of performance mods, etc the VQ might start to shine then. I guess the true answer to your orginally question - Weither or not the VQ will be the next pefered tunner motor, etc, etc? The only good answer at this point is Time will tell, there's simple not enough results to test that theory yet if you compare it to all the other performing motors out there.
As for actually performing mods on either car I4, I6, V6, V8... the inline motors will be easier to work on, many do to space, simpler design, and the fact you really don't have to remove mass amounts of things to get to other stuff... good example... inline motors only have one head gasket, one header, fuel rail, etc. Somewhat simple design wise...
All right guys... Pick it apart, what did I leave out?
Originally posted by 97Turbo+-->QUOTE(97Turbo)I'd assume this is being done on there blocks as well... Through some more reading I've found listed below, it would fortify that statment.
alittle more info on the VQ
The weak point of the VQ block is its open deck construction and freestanding bores. Nissan did this so the cylinder top end would be more evenly heated to reduce hydrocarbon emissions. Open decks also lend themselves to die casting better. The bad part about this is when the engine is loaded hard, the unsupported cylinders walk around compromising head seal and eventually cracking from the pressure. Thus a stock VQ block should not be boosted past 16 or so psi or have more than a 120 shot of Nitrous run through it or damage can result.
To reduce emissions the VQ has its compression rings near the top of the piston. This reduces crevice volume and the potential for hydrocarbons hiding in this area to contaminate the exhaust. The downside is that this weakens the piston and detonation can thus easily break the piston in the ring land area. Many a forced induction VQ in a Z has succumbed to this fate.
Another problem is that the VQ's have marginal rod bolts that are failure prone much past 7200 rpm.
I know AEBS offers a VQ35DE 4.3 Liter Stroker Kit, which involves:
re machining the block to accept their fully buttressed centrifugally spun nodular iron deck sleeves. The thick sleeves can take a huge overbore and still maintain strength. The full deck gives the head gasket additional clamping area so blown gaskets will be a thing of the past. The full deck also eliminates cylinder flexing and any chance of cylinder wall breakage. The thick deck flange also prevents the bane of all sleeved engines, a sunk sleeve. AEBS forged pistons for any compression ratio you desire solve the ring land breakage problem. The pistons are a tough low silicon alloy and feature strong and lightweight tool steel pins. The rods are machined from forged 4340 chrome molly blanks and feature SPS 180,000 psi bolts. No breaking these suckas. AEBS's stroker crank is machined from a forged 4340 billet as well. This crank should be bullet proof and should be able to take anything you can throw at it.
Most of the above findings are taken from nissan performance mag...
Originally posted by Batty200@
Well theoretically a 4.3L would only have to rev to about 7K rpm to move the same amount of air as a 3.0L would at 10K. So a 2jz spools a certain turbo at 6K rpm a 4.3 would spool the same turbo at 4200. Now say the 2jz rev to 10K and the 4.3 revs to 7K (both fairly reasonable assumptions). The idle is the wasted rpm that you subtract to find useable rpm. The 2jz is making power from 6-10 which is 44% of its usable rpm range from idle to redline. The 4.3 would be making power from 4200 to 7K which is 47% of its usable rpm range from idle to redline. I would hope a built VQ could rev higher than 7K and the difference would just get worse for the 2jz as the RPMS go up. It is a simple case of displacement winning if all else is equal.
Later
<!--QuoteBegin-kaneda
i just wanted to add that when we finally get a new GT-R it will most likely be powered by a detuned version of NISMO's VQ30DETT with around 400 BHP; that if anything will be the next big import engine. from what i've gathered the VQ30DETT utilizes a closed deck construction unlike the VQ35DE and more like the RB26DETT. i would also expect an 8.5:1 or 9:1 compression ratio and stronger race derived connecting rods and pistons. this is going to make for some great power without fear of putting holes in things and without the expense of having to rebuild a motor to make decent power. i think we'll have our "next big import engine" in 2-3 years. and of course, when NISMO starts pumping R-Tune and Z-Tune versions we'll see some monster "factory" cars starting to roll out once again. :coold:
Rumors are a VQ32DETT (co-developed by Cosworth) or VQ35DETT."
