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Discussion Starter #1
I apologise if ths has been covered before. I plan on getting 19x9 (f) 19x10 ® with 245/35 and 275/30.

Will this affect VDC? Any Track owners with 19's experiencing problems?

Thanks
 

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hey,

quick calculations on tyre diameter shows difference to 18" stock:
- the front to be approx less than 1% smaller
- the rears to be approx 4.4% smaller

Based on that, the front should be ok, but the rears being so much different in rolling diameter will as a guess affect VDC. It uses individual wheel sensors with speed differences between them playing a major part on when it kicks in, amongst other things.

Why not go something like 275/35/19 on the rears? these are just .4% smaller, so should cause less problems.

Also, check all the 350z forums, as you will see what others have done and if problems have been incurred with running 19" etc.

cheers

PS: Also, need to get the correct offset. Another thing to check up on!
 

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You should be running 35 profile in the rear
 

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Also,
changing to a wider section tyre will change the contact patch.
It won't give you any larger contact area ( a popular misconception).
What it will do is chnage the shape, wider, but shorter. This will give you a much harsher ride than already in the zed.

If you went for a narrower width tyre it may make a difference in ride, but then turn-in will be slower.

Try to pm someone who has upgraded from 18 to 19" to see their experience.

cheers
 

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Going to wide will give you really bad ride!
Contact patch becomes to wide and short.
But will look good, which is probably why you are getting 19"s anyway.
 

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MickeyBoy Wrote:
Going to wide will give you really bad ride!

I own Volk 19" wheels with 245X35, 275X35 tyres and the ride is fine, I didnt notice much change in regards to ride.

But will look good, which is probably why you are getting 19"s anyway.

Well if you consider that Volks are lighter than the stock wheels, the higher quality tyres hold the road better, the wider offsets help with cornering stability and I havent tested the contact patch but based on the increase in road holding ability chances are its larger, so performance could have been a contributing factor as well wouldnt you say?
 

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Chappo,

I wasn't having a go at you!

The ride would have to be harsher than stock 18"s, that is a fact. Perhaps you are just used to it, but they will be harsher.

Contact patch will be different. It will be wider, but shorter in length, this contributes to harsher ride because the bumps cannot be absorbed as well as in a narrower tyre (with a narrower contact patch, but longer, more time contacting the road and absorbing the deflection).

There is no difference in grip with a wider tyre. The actual grip that a tyre can generate is dictated by the coefficient of friction of the rubber compound used in the tyre. The higher the coefficient, the more grip which can be generated. The level of grip of the tyre (forgetting about suspension niceties - we are only discussing tyres here) is totally dictated by the coefficient of grip of the tyre and the weight acting on it - not the area of the contact between the tyre and the road.

The benefit of a wider: -It will have a reduced coefficient of friction, particularly when cold. Because it is wider it can have a softer compound with better frictional properties. Due to the reduced bending stresses, and greater cooling the tyre will tend to stay within a narrow temperature range giving greater cold grip, while managing to have a reduced propensity for overheating. Obviously, this makes for a better performance tyre.

-Tyre width has no direct relation to the amount of grip generated; it is a secondary factor, and the width basically relates to cooling potential and so the tyre compound that can be used.

-Having a lower tyre profile gives improved handling through reduced sidewall stress and improved contact patch shape stability.

So, it's all not just about looking good but probably mostly!
 

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I run 19" on my daily driver. If this helps:-

- Very critical to get the correct offset or you may find yourself outside the law (varies from State to State). Generally you can widen the track within reason, but not diminish it. The stock offsets for Touring are +30 front and +33 rear (I believe Track may be +33/+33). I run +22/+22 which is legal in Queensland, looks great in that it fills out the guards and I have had no rubbing (see tyre sizes below). Given that Touring and Track run exactly the same suspension etc, the same would hold true for Track model.
- Very few 19" wheels with a decent offset are available in Aus for the Z. Don't go for anything less than +30 or +33/+33 because, besides being possibly illegal, the centre point of the wheel is actually going further inside the tub and looks ordinary.Volk Racing and Buddy Club are a real option as they both offer +22. Both are light weight and excellent but are quite expensive at about $1,050 per wheel on average (varies a bit from 8 1/2" up to 9 1/2"). The old story - "You get what you pay for". I believe Racing Hart also offer a wheel that fits and, again, they are an excellent brand but dig deep. Talk to someone like Paul at Donnelans in Melbourne. I bought through Paul and found him to be excellent
Take care with sizing - I had people offering me all sorts of wheels that were illegal because of offset and would have caused possible problems. They just wanted the sale.
- My wheels are F 8 1/2 x 19 and R 9 1/2 x 19 shod with Dunlop Sport 9000 F 245.35.19 and R 275.35.19. I have no rubbing whatsoever. I believe 9" on the front and 10" on the rear would not cause a problem if you use a +22 offset and same tyre size as the tyre would just stretch out towards the rim itself. Situation could change if you lower the car and I notice that some USA folk roll their guards. This could be because of the tyres as not all 245s or 275s seem to be the same!!
Tyres are not cheap (I paid F >$500 and R >$900 each), but with more and more cars going to 19" this will come down.
Going to F 9" and R 10" could see the wheel itself protrude past the guards which is generally illegal. My wheels are close to the limit, but you could always go to an offset closer to standard (ie closer to +30/+33) which would alleviate some of the problem subject to enough clearance on the inside. A bit of a gamble!
- Ride? Well I generally travel ride on well made roads and whilst, harsh, is still acceptable to me. You know when you are on rough bitumen as the car tends to vibrate a bit (38psi all round doesn't help). Also, I spend a lot of time concentrating on road surface as you don't want to hit any pot holes for fear of damaging your expensive rims!
- Performance? Probably not as good as smaller diameter rims because sidewall flex (part of the handling process) is so limited.
- Looks? Go the nineteens!! Just awesome!

cheers
Coatsie
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Thanks for all the advice guys. That's cleared alot of things up. I plan on lowering the car but I don't want the wheels to be tucked in or sticking out...just flush. +22 offset for front and rear then?

Murray: whats your set-up regarding your rims (offset/size)?

Coatsie: thanks heaps for the thorough and informative write up.

Any pics would be appreciated.

Can anyone recommend any shops in Sydney? I don't want to end up with the wrong set-up after spending that much money.

Thanks
 

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dre168

Yes, I run +22 offset for front and rear. I have photos from front and rear which show just how much they fill the guards, but they are 1.2MB each so I will have to reduce size/quality to post them here. My tech skills are not that flash so will have to enlist help!!

I would love to lower my car by about 20mm because it would enhance the look even more. I'm confident it wouldn't rub on the guards with the Dunlops, but I have two problems; the insurance company and my driveway. You can't win them all!!

I don't know of any Sydney outlets. I live on the Sunshine Coast and still bought my wheels through Donnellans in Melbourne with no problems at all. I sourced the tyres locally to reduce costs.

I'll work on the pics.

cheers
Coatsie
 

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MickeyBoy Wrote:
I wasn't having a go at you!

I know but you didn’t know any of the thoughts that went through dre168's head when you made that assumption.

The ride would have to be harsher than stock 18"s, that is a fact. Perhaps you are just used to it, but they will be harsher.

Whether it will be perceived to be 'really bad' by the driver is another thing.

Contact patch will be different. It will be wider, but shorter in length, this contributes to harsher ride because the bumps cannot be absorbed as well as in a narrower tyre (with a narrower contact patch, but longer, more time contacting the road and absorbing the deflection).

Technically it will be harsher but like I mentioned above it doesn’t mean it will be perceived as 'really bad' by the driver.

There is no difference in grip with a wider tyre. The actual grip that a tyre can generate is dictated by the coefficient of friction of the rubber compound used in the tyre. The higher the coefficient, the more grip which can be generated. The level of grip of the tyre (forgetting about suspension niceties - we are only discussing tyres here) is totally dictated by the coefficient of grip of the tyre and the weight acting on it - not the area of the contact between the tyre and the road.

I had to read up on this but what you are describing is Coulomb's law which applies to hard dry, clean, smooth surfaces. From what I understand the coefficient of friction in this case does solely rely depend on the surface material and the force applied to it.

But a tyre is not like that. A tyre is soft, tough and, sticky making contact with a hard, rough surface. So that law does not apply here. With rubber on pavement there is not only the rubber compound to consider but also shearing of rubber and the mechanical interlock between the high points of the pavement and the rubber as it moulds around it. This joining acts like a pair of meshing gears and with gears the more teeth in the join the more force is required to shear off the teeth.

This is why a larger contact patch will have more grip. So if you can increase the size of your contact patch then you will have increased grip.

The benefit of a wider: -It will have a reduced coefficient of friction, particularly when cold. Because it is wider it can have a softer compound with better frictional properties. Due to the reduced bending stresses, and greater cooling the tyre will tend to stay within a narrow temperature range giving greater cold grip, while managing to have a reduced propensity for overheating. Obviously, this makes for a better performance tyre.

It also spends a smaller portion of the revolution in contact with the road than a narrow, long contact patch. Less time on the road means less wear so you can trade this increased tyre life with a softer compound tyre that would wear quicker and it will last as long as the narrower tyre with the harder compound tyre.

-Tyre width has no direct relation to the amount of grip generated; it is a secondary factor, and the width basically relates to cooling potential and so the tyre compound that can be used.

You're basing this on a law which doesn’t apply well to tyres, tyre width is related to the amount of grip available. Better cooling is one of the benefits of running a wider tyre but a wider tyre makes more effective use of its contact patch by having a greater amount of tyre in the initial grip cycle and less time in the slip zone as it rotates around and approaches the point of break away. When you compare this to a narrower tyre's contact patch which has smaller amount of tyre in the grip cycle and more in the slip zone you can see that even if a contact patch has the same amount of surface area touching the road it doesn’t mean it will have the same percentage of tyre in the grip area where the tyre is actually gripping the road.

-Having a lower tyre profile gives improved handling through reduced sidewall stress and improved contact patch shape stability.

The same can also be achieved through the use of a wider tyre, thought its not often you increase the width of a tyre without moving to a lower profile.





Some of the benefits below would have accounted for my felt increase in road holding ability and why wider tyres offer more grip and their other benefits. I’ve put my summary of the reasons in brackets.

1. It runs cooler
(this is because the wider shorter contact patch spends less time getting heated by the road and more time getting cooled by the air),

and/or

2. It makes more efficient use of its contact patch by having a greater percentage adhering
(this is because a wider tyre with its wide short contact patch has more of its contact patch in the grip cycle and less time in the slip zone as it approaches the point of break away, while a narrower tyre with its narrow longer contact patch will have less of its contact patch in the grip cycle and more in the slip zone, this is contributing factor to why wider tyre has more grip than a narrower one),

and/or

3. It can run at lower inflation pressure and therefore actually have a larger contact patch
(this is to do with the fact that a wider tyre is stiffer vertically so you can run a lower tyre pressure and achieve the same vertical stiffness as a narrower tyre with a higher tyre pressure the benefit of this is the wider tyre will have more rubber touching the road which results in a larger contact patch which results in more grip as mentioned in point 2),

and/or

4. It can have greater lateral stiffness at a given pressure and therefore keep its tread planted better
(this is to do with the fact that a wider tyre is stiffer laterally and vertically so if you chose to run the same tyre pressure as the narrow tyre you can do so with no penalty to the contact patch size, and the tyre will not flex as much keeping the tyre better planted),

and/or

5. It can use a softer, stickier, faster-wearing compound without penalty in longevity.
(A wider tyre with a wide short contact patch will wear down slower because it spends less time per revolution in contact with the road when compared to a narrower tyre, this will increase the life of the tyre, giving you the opportunity to trade some of this increased tyre life for a softer compound that will wear down faster resulting in the same tyre life as before but with a increase in grip.)
 

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dre168 wrote:
Thanks for all the advice guys. That's cleared alot of things up. I plan on lowering the car but I don't want the wheels to be tucked in or sticking out...just flush. +22 offset for front and rear then?

It depends on the specific wheels you are getting as to the exact offsets you should get.

Murray: whats your set-up regarding your rims (offset/size)?

Volk GTC, 19X8.5 ~+22 Front , 19X9.5 +35 Rear , S03 245X35 Front, S03 275X35 Rear.

The rears on mine could be pushed out a little bit but my camber is out which is contibuting to this. The offsets I went with were recommended by Volk in Japan so it wont touch the guard and since they are so expensive and take ages to get here I didnt want to go against what they said and have the wheels not fit under the guards and I didnt want to have to roll them.

Any pics would be appreciated.

<a href='http://users.bigpond.com/carnator/photos/mc_350z_1.jpg' target='_new'></a>

<a href='http://users.bigpond.com/carnator/photos/mc_350z_3.jpg' target='_new'></a>

Can anyone recommend any shops in Sydney? I don't want to end up with the wrong set-up after spending that much money.

I live in Sydney but I went through Paul Donnellan at Donnellans in Melbourne. They had the best price and they are a authorised seller of Volk wheels. I paid $980 per wheel, around $300-350 for the centre caps and $550 for each front tyre and $500 for each the rear though you wont be able to get the rears at those prices again. Expect to wait a few months for the wheels to be made and to get here from Japan.

http://www.donnellans.com.au/pages/1_home.php
 

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There is no difference in grip with a wider tyre. The actual grip that a tyre can generate is dictated by the coefficient of friction of the rubber compound used in the tyre.

That is not quiete true. Yes the contract path is a 2-dimnetional area given by the width and length. Having a wider tyre will make the 'length' of the contact-patch shorter ... but that is only if you keep exactly the same tyre pressures. Tyre pressures have an impact on the size of the contact patch ... as does the weight of the car.

Also the assumprion that wider tyres do not give you more grip is wrong. Even without getting technical here's a few simple questions:
a) Do you think your car will have the same grip if you replace your tyres/wheels with ones that are as think as bycicles?
b) Why do cars get wider tyres as the the power input is increased? ie. why does M3 have wider tyres than 318?

The width of the tyre is directly related to the amount of grip that it has. Making it wider will give you more grip, and making it thinner will give you less grip. Again, without getting technical, just think about the racing-categories and what they do to stow/speed up the cars. eg.
a) V8 Supercars have relatively thin tyres in order to make the cars sliude a lot more and make the spactating a lot more exciting. This in turn makes the cars slower and just to see how much slower you only need to look at Porsche Cup cars which lap within a couple of seconds of the V8 Supercars ... and that is with similar weight and less than 3/4 of the power.
b) F1 has used the introduction of thinner tyres to slow the cars down ever since the 80s (maybe even 70s). Look at how wide the tyres were then and look how thin they are now. They always introduce the thinner tyres as part of a 'slowing down' of the class every 5 years or so.

And the last point is that tyres do make a hoge difference to the grip that car has. The tyres themselves are responsible for something like 80%+ of grip that a car has. The tyres alone are responsible for this and what gives them grip is a combination of compund and width. Afterall, the more powerfull the car is, the wider and stickier tyres it needs as otherwise it will not have enough grip.
 

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I wasn't making assumptions regarding the 19" wheels, but let's not kid ourselves why most people get them - looks.

"I had to read up on this but what you are describing is Coulomb's law"
I wasn't referring to Coulomb's Law at all. This a strange law to use and probably irrelevant! The law I was using was Amonton's Law (which I have explained in further detail further below).

Coulomb's law definition:In physics, Coulomb's law is an inverse-square law indicating the magnitude and direction of electrical force that one stationary, electrically charged substance of small volume (ideally, a point source) exerts on another.

Coulomb's Law is fully accurate only when the substances are static (stationary), and remains approximately correct only for slow movement. When movement takes place, magnetic fields are produced that alter the force on the two substances. Especially when rapid movement takes place, the electric field will also undergo a transformation described by Einstein's theory of relativity.

So Coulomb's law can only be 'loosely' used when comparing contact patch and grip when the vehicle is stationary.

So to continue this lesson in physics;

"This is why a larger contact patch will have more grip. So if you can increase the size of your contact patch then you will have increased grip."
"Some of the benefits below would have accounted for my felt increase in road holding ability and why wider tyres offer more grip and their other benefits."

Most people will come to the conclusion that if you have "more rubber on the road" you will have increased grip. Sorry to say, but thats's very close to 100% inaccuracy, the size of the contact patch is irrelevant.

The actual grip that a tyre can generate is dictated by the coefficient of friction of the rubber compound used in the tyre. The higher the coefficient, the more grip which can be generated. The relation that is used is called Amonton's Law and the equation is:

F=µN,

where F is the force generated, µ is the coefficient of friction, and N is the weight on the surface considered (in our case, the weight on the tyre).

So, if you increase the weight on the tyre, then the frictional force will increase as well, in proportion to the increase in weight on the tyre - but the coefficient of friction will remain the same.

The size of the contact patch has no bearing on the amount of grip generated at all, apart from the extreme of where the compound is getting so hot that it no longer acts as a solid (and therefore doesn't follow Amonton's Law).

a wider tyre makes more effective use of its contact patch by having a greater amount of tyre in the initial grip cycle and less time in the slip zone as it rotates around and approaches the point of break away. When you compare this to a narrower tyre's contact patch which has smaller amount of tyre in the grip cycle and more in the slip zone you can see that even if a contact patch has the same amount of surface area touching the road it doesn’t mean it will have the same percentage of tyre in the grip area where the tyre is actually gripping the road.
Yes, a wider tyre might make more effective use of it's contact patch, but this does not mean that it will necessarily give more grip (see Amonton's law above). What I also do know is a tyre with a wide, short contact patch will have reduced self-aligning torque (the propensity for the wheel to wish to track straight). This is obvious in cars with suspension that makes them prone to tramlining (ala 350z) - on the same car, wider tyres will tramline more than narrower tyres. The widening of the shape of the contact patch will, however, improve turn-in, as the shorter contact patch takes less time to "re-arrange" itself when establishing the cornering force. This is because the individual blocks of tread can only change their direction after they lift off the road - and a shorter contact patch means that each tread block is in contact with the road for less time. Perhaps this is what you meant above?

So what I am saying (and have been saying) is larger diameter rims and wide rubber on any car doesn't necessarily equate to more grip. Most people (& you may not be one of them or dre168) go larger for the sake of looks. I bought my zed because I like the way it looked, I also bought 18'" rims because I liked the way they looked, not because the wider rubber gave me more grip! If anything, there is also a point where going larger (dia & width) will actually slow a car.

If you digest the above then you will qualify for a degree from the University of 350Z tyre grip!

Cheers :clap: :shiftdrive:
 

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Also the assumprion that wider tyres do not give you more grip is wrong. Even without getting technical here's a few simple questions:
a) Do you think your car will have the same grip if you replace your tyres/wheels with ones that are as think as bycicles?
b) Why do cars get wider tyres as the the power input is increased? ie. why does M3 have wider tyres than 318?

David,
by all means get a bit more technical than this!

Perhaps you should read up on Amonton's law.
 

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by all means get a bit more technical than this!

I don't think there is any point. I'm not really sure how you can dispute what AVESCO and FIA do/say in terms of this? As I said before, I'm sure that you (or anyone else) cannot claim that if you put 1" wide tyres on your car that you will have the same grip as you have now.

Manufactures that fit wide tyres on their cars do not do so for looks, but for grip. One of the reasons why the German sedans seem much quicker than the locals is direclty because of the tyres. They run 265+ tyres at the back while the locals run 235s usually. Hence they don't have enough grip to get off the line and keep up with the Germans. If you put 265+ tyres on a HSV (or another local) then you have more grip and can match the germans. If you want proof, just look at what Peter Ditchera does with the Corsa vehicles, and read up why.

To give more examples:
- When the 1990 MR2 came out it had 1095 tyres at the front and 205s at the back. The car was widely regarded as 'taily' and what Toyota did in 1992 was put 225s on the back to fix the problem. I owned an 1993 MR2 and am very familiar with pre-92 MR2s and the post 1992 MR2 has a lot more grip at the back.
- S2000 was getting a 'taily' reputation as well over the last few years and Honda is trying to help with this 'issue' by fitting 245s at the back.
- Original Elise has 205 tyres at the front (or somewhere close to it). This morel was regarded as havign a bit too much turn in (and hance taily) and what Lotus did was put 185 tyres at the front to reduce the front-end grip. They have succeeded and some peopel say that the Elise is now an understeerer (which is not liked by everyone ... watch the Jeremy Clarkson review at TopGear).

What they are telling us is that changing the width of your tyres does change the grip levels of the car (and hence even balance). Not sure if you're implying that all of these (and other) manufacturers are wrong and that the changes that they made had no effect. Are you?

Though, to get a little bit more technical here's few reasons why wider generally equals grippier, and vice versa. First of we're pressuming the same compound rubber for all the tyres:
a) The tyres are acted on by a variable and dynamic set of forces. Therefore the contact patch is different when parked to when you're accelerating hard. Most of the grip that we feel happens at some kind of an 'extreme' and not when things are nice and static.
b) Contact patch area is given by the weight of the car (or more to the point the forces acting onto the tyre), and the pressures inside them. I'd rather not get into the weight/forces here as that is in a way irrelevant for what I'm trying to say here - that the tyre pressures have a big impact on the size of the contact patch. Wider tyres have stiffer sidewalls than thinner tyres ... you might find an exception, but generaly speaking that is how things go. Because of this you (and usualy do) run lower-pressures without introducing more tyre-flex. That gives you now have bigger contact-patch and hence more grip.

Let me re-itterate the question I asked you before, what will happen when you replace your tyres with tyres that are 1" wide?
a) Will you have the same amount of grip as before?
b) Will you have more grip than before?
c) Will you have exactly the same grip as before?

So which one is it?
 

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You obviously have not been reading my posts!

That gives you now have bigger contact-patch and hence more grip.
The actual grip that a tyre can generate is dictated by the coefficient of friction of the rubber compound used in the tyre. The higher the coefficient, the more grip which can be generated. The relation that is used is called Amonton's Law. READ coefficient of friction of the rubber compound!!!! It is as simple as that!

Perhaps a 1" tyre could generate more grip than a wider tyre if the compound allowed it to. But again with these 'off the cuff' left field questions. You must think I am some fish ready to be baited? Please keep it real world.

Read what I have posted earlier carefully! Some of what you are saying is the same (some totally different), but I have used a mathematics to back up what I have said. Remember mathematics explains nearly all things!

Oh and yes of course tyre pressure plays an important part. Only the internal air pressure and the weight of the car acting through the wheel determine a tyre's contact patch area. I have said this earlier.

BTW, AVESCO and FIA are governing bodies for certain motorsports. Just because they run different rules for the various car groups does not make them correct. They have different reasons for doing what they do (much of it political lobbying by those with the most money). Using them as an example is not a valid claim. It's similary stupid for me to say that the Nissan engineers ( and hence Nissan) must be guru's because they put Potenza Re040 on the zed. Duh!
 

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You obviously have not been reading my posts!

I have, so sorry if I have missed something.

The actual grip that a tyre can generate is dictated by the coefficient of friction of the rubber compound used in the tyre. The higher the coefficient, the more grip which can be generated.

Now I could say the same thing about you as it appers you have not read my post ;-) I asked several times that for the sake of keeping things comparable, let's keep the tyre compund the same for all the different width tyres that we're talking about.

Perhaps a 1" tyre could generate more grip than a wider tyre if the compound allowed it to. But again with these 'off the cuff' left field questions. You must think I am some fish ready to be baited? Please keep it real world.

My expample has direct effect on the claim that width of the tyre is not related to the grip. Or are you saying that tihs theory does not apply to 1" wider tyres?

I'll rephrase the question to be more 'real world' - Do you think that putting 185 wide tyres on your car will generate the same grip as the ones you have right now (235s?)? That is pressuming that the tyre compund stays exactly the same.

Also there's no baiting here, afterall ... what applies to the small-change situations must apply to the expreme ones as well.

Just because they run different rules for the various car groups does not make them correct.

It does make them correct when the direct result of their actions is slower lap-times. Thinner tyres is one of the primary methods of slowing down the F1 cars. They do that to give them less grip.

Also you have missed my 3 examples with Elise, S2000 and MR2. There was a big difference in grip/balance of those cars after they changed the width of the tyres ... which was the idea. Or do you not belive that there wasn't any difference?


It's similary stupid for me to say that the Nissan engineers ( and hence Nissan) must be guru's because they put Potenza Re040 on the zed. Duh!

That is totaly un-related. The fitment of RE040s on a 350Z shows nothing ... at least not as far as I can see. There was nothing that I know off that Nissan was trying to achieve by fitting the RE040s to the Zed. Which is very much unlike my Elise, S2000 and MR2 examples.

ps.
My disagreement is not with the contact patch theory that you're refering to, but with the statement that "wider tyres do not equal more grip". Yes, you can have thinner tyres that are grippier than the wider ones and that would be due to the rubber compund. Though also if you take that grippier tyre in a wider configuration, then you will have even more grip.
 
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