Nissan 370Z Tech Forums banner

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,719 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Went out to Wakefield Park again today with some guys from the NSCC.

I'm still not able to drop out of the 1:14 time. Even with the Koni dampers and semi-slicks, I'm only pulling a consistent 1:14.5.

On the plus side, I did get a chance to do some damper tuning (2 turns from soft feels like a good setting for Wakefield) although I would have liked to have changed the damper bias to try and trim some of the understeer out.

I might take the plunge and get swaybars first, and then tune for that.

I also managed to get another one of my objectives completed, which was working on my braking technique. I started braking harder and deeper (sounds like a cheesy porn soundtrack!), did some proper trail braking and modulating the brake pedal to smooth out the weight shift.

I'm not sure why all this got me less than 0.5 sec a lap better than before, but at least now I'm feeling more confident at the amount of abuse my brakes will take before fading (they were quite resistant, actually) and a baseline for my shocks.

Anyway, won't be doing that again until the weather drops, but as always it was great fun.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
785 Posts
Sounds like fun!
Man, take the plunge with the sways, you will definitely beat that time. I am amazed at the way the understeer is now controllable in my car.
This is the mod to do if you want to go faster round those bends.

Watch those seconds come off your lap times!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,120 Posts
I'm still not able to drop out of the 1:14 time. Even with the Koni dampers and semi-slicks, I'm only pulling a consistent 1:14.5.

Sounds like fun ... how many times have you beenthere now? Also semi-clicks have you got?

I'm not sure why all this got me less than 0.5 sec a lap better than before

Probably because no matter what mods you make to the car, what really needs to happen is you (ie. the driver) needs to go quicker (that is exept having more power). You might have made the limits further up with the tyres and springs, but I guess you did not go that much harder than before. It takes time to get comfortable with pushing the limits, and moving them higher does not make it any easier.

If you think about it, the car had about another 3sec in it when it was stock (going by the BFYB time of 1:11.97). So in theory you were 3secs of the limit (that is if 1:11.97 is the limit). With the tyres and springs you took 2.5sec or so from the 'potential' and therefore you have (probably) a 1:09.xx car there. Though, getting that time out of it is a different story and never easy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,719 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
One of the things I've been doing wrong is running too high air pressures in the tyre. Apparently I should be running them lower, especially on a low profile tyre with reinforced sidewalls.

One thing I noticed when driving with the Falken Azenis RS-V04s is that I didn't have any more grip (I felt) but the tyres never went off and overheated.

I was pushing it a bit more, and trying to feel the limits. I wasn't braking as late as I could, since I don't want to cook the brakes, but in terms of carrying cornering speed I was flinging the car a lot harder.

I was also steering the car on the brakes in a couple of points, and getting a nice little slip. Still, obviously I'm not giving it enough if I can run on racing rubber and firmer dampers and not improve my times.


I've been out about a half a dozen times now. Wakefield's a nice track to play on.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,719 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
I was there with someone who had Michelin Pilot Sport rubber, APS catback, and the swaybars and we were running neck and neck. He said the handling difference was negligible for him, but it was enough to sit firmly on my butt.

We were having a lot of fun chasing each other, especially when we got some open track to work with.

He was in a Track model so he was more willing and able to late brake, but I think I could carry more cornering speed through some of the faster bends to make up for it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
785 Posts
If you are only pushing to say 90% of your limit, then as you tune ur car to where you want it, pushing to 90% of that limit each time should yield better times. Really depends on the suspension mods that are done, perhaps the Koni's (tyres diff story) haven't done that much, or need to do more experimentation with the tuning.
I doubt any driver can push a car to it's limit lap after lap. F1, supercars, grand ams are all human & maybe getting their car to 95% of it's limit.
Let us know next time ur are going, would love to come down.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,120 Posts
driving with the Falken Azenis RS-V04s

Hmmm, I don't know very much about these. I don't think I've seen anyone use them yet so I can't say how they are. Thoguh, I take it that they're the ones listed towards the bottom of this page:

http://www.mx5mania.com/wheels.htm

Though, I do know that the 'Falken Azeniz RT215' (ie. listed on the same web-site bellow the RS-V04s) as I've had those. These don't have anymore grip than athe top of the line street-tyres so they're nowhere close to an R-spec tyre in terms of grip ... they are very 'track friendly', but they don't produce noticable quikcer lap-times like R-spec tyres.

I was there with someone who had Michelin Pilot Sport rubber, APS catback, and the swaybars and we were running neck and neck.

I know those, and the Sports Cups are certainly a proper R-spec tyres. If your Falkens had similar grip levels to them then they're about as grippy as R-spec tyres get.

One thing I noticed when driving with the Falken Azenis RS-V04s is that I didn't have any more grip (I felt) but the tyres never went off and overheated.

Though, that does surprise me. Anytime I get into a car with R-spec tyres, the grip level improvement is very much noticable ... in pareticular once they're heated up. Even without taking any corners I notcie the extra grip levels as I no longer can spin the tyres by making a quick shift from 2nd-to-3rd gear. The RE040s produce a bit of wheel-spin everytime I do that.

If you are only pushing to say 90% of your limit, then as you tune ur car to where you want it, pushing to 90% of that limit each time should yield better times.

Not exaclty ... as I don't think one is conciously driving at 90% (ie. with 10% in reserves), but pushing as hard as they dare instead. When the limits get greater, one still has to push harder to go quicker ... the car just hangs on longer. R-spec tyres do not produce quicker lap-times unless you push them harder than the normal-tyres.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
785 Posts
As the handling limit on a car increases (thru proper tuning of suspension) and the driver pushes as hard as previous, then of course lap times will come down, very simple logic.

Whether we can all drive like this is another story!

R-spec tyres do not produce quicker lap-times unless you push them harder than the normal-tyres.

I thought that was the whole point. Why would anyone run them if they were not going to try & go any faster. That just does not make any sense!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,120 Posts
As the handling limit on a car increases (thru proper tuning of suspension) and the driver pushes as hard as previous, then of course lap times will come down, very simple logic.

Hehe, re-read your sentence and you'll see that you're saying the same thing as me, just not undertstanding what I'mm saying. If you push as far on the R-spec tyres as you did on the road-tyres then you will go exactly the same speed on both tyres. You need to push harder on the R-spec tyres to go quicker.

eg. if you went around a corner at 100kph on the normal tyres, and then put on the R-spec tyres and went around the same corner at a 100kph again, then you went at exaclty thew same speed ... right? Same speed will equate the same lap-times.

Though, if you know where the limit is, and drive 10% bellow it then what you say would holds true. Though, for that you have to know where the limit is in the 1st place. A lot of people do not know exactly where this is (not that I'm sayingt that Scathing doesn't know this ... I'm just speaking in general).

R-spec tyres do not produce quicker lap-times unless you push them harder than the normal-tyres ... That just does not make any sense!

Of course they don't produce quicker lap-times all by themselves. Afterall, you can still go as slow with them on as you like. So in theory you can produce lower lap-times with them than you did with the steer-tyres if you do not push as hard. If's very common to see some drivers on road-tyres be a lot quicker than other drivers on R-spec tyres ... what makes one quicker than the other is the level of skill ... one is closer to the limit than the other and the skill-level will always override any gains that you can make via equipment.

Though, if you drive the car on the limit of the grip no matter what, then this limit is higher on the R-spec tyres and hence you will produce quicker lap-times ... something in the vicinity of 2sec around a track like Wakefiled (or Winton).

Though, for that you have to have the car at the limit. Also being 'on the limit' and extracting 'optimal' lap-times are 2 different things. You can have the car on the limit without being necesarilly fast (and vice versa). I can't speak for Scathing as I was not there, so I don't know which one of these categories would Scathing fit into (I'd guess just like most people - bit of both).

Though, I do know that 1st time I actually drove on Rs-pec tyres, it took me a little while to push hard-enough to find the limits of the R-spec tyres even though I would say I knew where the limits of the road-tyres was.

ps. Scathing, what other cars were there? Also how did they go?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
562 Posts
Scathing, did you use the DS2500 brake pads or were you on OEM ones? I just wanted to know which ones did you use since you didn't want to brake to hard into the corners.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,176 Posts
DavidM - The Pilot Spots may not have been the PS Cup R spec tyres. They may have been original PS or PS2 or PS Cup???

Nuff - I guessing that Scathing ran the DS2500 pads as the stock pads would not have lasted for many hard laps.

Scathing - If you want to lower your times dramatically, then hit the ripple strips on turn-in, if you're not already doing this. This method will gain you a couple of seconds. However, it may cost you a couple broken rims too, so you'd want to be fairly desperate for those extra 2 sec.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,120 Posts
DavidM - The Pilot Spots may not have been the PS Cup R spec tyres. They may have been original PS or PS2 or PS Cup???

You're right ... Scathing did not say that they were the 'Sports Cup' tyres. Maybe he can clarify as the other sports-cups are just your regular road-tyres. They are very good road-tyres, but they have nothing on any of the R-spec tyres around.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,719 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
David - Yep, its those RSV-04s mentioned on that MX5 site. The RT215s are a street tyre, no matter what anyone tells you. They just happen to be more track friendly.

The RSV-04s are meant to compete with the Pilot Cup Sports, D01J's, A048s of the world.

I get the feeling I was generating more grip, given my corner exit speeds, but since I'd overinflated them they weren't gripping as well as they could (which might explain my experience on them).

My friend wasn't running on Cup rubber; he was running on the "street" Pilot Sports. Hence why I was expecting to have more grip than he did, especially in the latter part of the session when we'd both been working it.

Full marks to Michelin then, for making a good street tyre that can handle sustained abuse on a very twisty track. At $700 a pop (on 18's) you'd bloody well hope they did, though.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,719 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Originally posted by DavidM@Jan 26 2005, 06:21 PM
ps. Scathing, what other cars were there? Also how did they go?


I was pushing it harder with these tyres and suspension, although I must admit I was still being "gentle" through the Kink and not hitting it as fast as I could have. Through the back section though, I was pretty much going as fast as I could, while trying to drive with my head and keep it smooth.

There was a pretty mixed bag out there. You had some people who were serious about driving (there was one guy in an old Elfin that, I swear, didn't brake in the first half of the track, and a guy in an R33 GT-R that monstered people in the straights and corners) but, at the same time, plenty of first timers who were trying to get used to track work.

In between there were people who knew what they were doing, (Pulsar SSS', Civics, etc) and I knew it was my car that was doing the majority of the work catching theirs, not me necessarily outdriving them.

Of course, there were knobs that couldn't drive, but wouldn't let you past after you spend 2-3 laps riding their ass.

There was one person in a yellow WRX who was the biggest jerk out there. The guy had no track craft, but big power from a big turbo.

We'd hit the straight and he'd just disappear off, but he'd brake well before the Kink (whereas I'd just lift and dab at the Kink, which I could probably do on even throttle if not flat) so by the time we hit turn 2 I'd be all over him.

Since he would completely miss the line he'd get into a four wheel drift and just slide out to the edge of the track. I'd try and cut in on him on the proper line and pass.

He'd finally get traction and throttle it, and you could see the turbo lag holding him back as I'd pull up almost to his A pillar. I'd hear his turbo spool up and roll my eyes as his car finally hit boost and pull away.

Of course, that straight is short so by the top of the straight between the two right handers that make up the Horseshoe, I'd be all over him again.


I eventually found room past him by outbraking him down the back straight (I'd hit that second last corner far faster than he could, which meant he couldn't get too far away when he hit boost as it is a short straight and he was braking way too early.

There were some friends from the NSCC in S15s that were running consistent 1:12's (standard bolt on mods, excellent setup, and D01J's to compliment a good driver).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,719 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Originally posted by Nuff@Jan 26 2005, 07:21 PM
Scathing, did you use the DS2500 brake pads or were you on OEM ones?

I'm still running the OEM pads because they haven't worn out, and Nissan replaces them even though I tell them not to.

I did do a couple of laps where I'd max attack and use the brakes to their fullest (and practically stand on them, gotta love the fact that the RSV-04s generate enough grip that I can do that without fear of locking up) before letting them cool afterwards, and those are the laps I timed.

When I was getting chased by my friend in the Track model I was working the brakes harder than I do normally, but even then they were fade 3. I think its more a confidence issue than their actual retardation. I've never had fade on Wakefield. I've only ever faded out on Eastern Creek, in the worst possible place.

The next time I go, assuming these pads are still there (and they're squealing so its unlikely) I'll be pushing the brakes and looking for them to fade. Of course by then I'll be back on street rubber as well (unless I can find another set of RSV-04s on the cheap), which will modify my times again.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,719 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Originally posted by KY350@Jan 27 2005, 04:55 AM
If you want to lower your times dramatically, then hit the ripple strips on turn-in, if you're not already doing this.

I'm using every ripple strip I can. I'm usually on the ripple strips on entry, clipping the apex ones, and possibly using the exit ones too :) There are a couple that are too corrugated to use (the turn in to the Horse-shoe is one, I had the back step out because of the ripple strip going into the turn unloading a rear tyre, which of course slows me down).

Unless you mean using the ripple strips Takumi style, where I drop a wheel on the other side of the strip and use it as a leverage point to turn faster than the theoretical grip of the tyres.....that tends to smash rims (and damage suspension arms).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,120 Posts
When I was getting chased by my friend in the Track model I was working the brakes harder than I do normally, but even then they were fade 3. I think its more a confidence issue than their actual retardation.

I'm not surprised. These days most cars have disks/pads big-enough to be able to lock-up the wheels from almost any speed if you hit them hard enough. So the actual force of retardation is limited by the available tyre brip, not the brakes.

So there's no reason why the regular brakes shold not brake as well as the Brembos in particluar if we're talking about them both being cold. Though, what the bigger disks/calipers do is handle heat-disipitation better and therefore retain their braking ability longer. The smaller brakes will over-heat earlier and therefore go 'off' earlier.

Though, I don't think that one would see any difference in the stoping distance between a regular and track models if the brakes are cold on both cars (well, not cold as such, but just not over-heated). Well, that is if they both had the same tyre footprint. A hard stop from 200kph might show the difference as I'm not sure if the regular brakes can handle a stop like that without over-heating, while the Track brakes should.

The RSV-04s are meant to compete with the Pilot Cup Sports, D01J's, A048s of the world.

That's what I thought ... so they should be worth around 2sec around Wakefield.

There was one person in a yellow WRX who was the biggest jerk out there. The guy had no track craft, but big power from a big turbo.

Yeah, it's almost imposible to pass someone who is quicker than you on the straights and does not 'want to' let you pass. Well that is unless you do a 'kamkaze' move which most club-racers would not risk doing. You're best of staying away from people like that.

ps. Did I ever post a 'guide to tracking at Wakefield'? It was written by one of the Motor jurnos who claimed to be doing 1:12s in a 100% stock 350Z track. It was a corner by corner brake-down of the track to get the quick times. If I have not posted it before, then I'll see if I can dig it up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
562 Posts
David, I think it would be a good idea if you posted it. I've not seen it myself.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,120 Posts
David, I think it would be a good idea if you posted it. I've not seen it myself.

OK, found the info and it's posted bellow ... though it was writtent with an RX8 in mind, and not necesarilly 350Z. Though, I think it should apply to any car. It is written by Mike Taylor from the Motor mag in response to someone (with an RX8) about the lap-times they managed last year there at BFYB. Mike Taylor claims that two of the jurnos also got into 1:12s with the RX8 (ie. not just the pro - Rick Bates):

Quote directly pasted from Mike Taylor:
"Wakefield's stinking hot in summer and, when we did Bang For Your Bucks testing there a couple of weeks ago, it was so cold it made Morley put his hands in his own pockets.

I agree with someone earlier who said it was very technical track and it's very easy to make a small mistake there that costs a lot of time, then make another one or two pushing too hard to make up for it.

It's not a great, thrilling driver's track, but it's very safe and relatively easy on the car, and they're the main things to consider if you're driving home again.

The kink's flat in every road car (even Audi RS6, M3 CSL, GTS etc), so don't be afraid to rip into it. When you brake into t1, don't worry too much about straightening the car too literally to align with the track edge trajectory. too many people do this. Instead, take the straight line from the kink apex to the outer edge of the track (where your turn-in point will be) and brake in that line.

The apex of t1 is actually a bit later than most people use, and if you get that right, you can carry quite a bit of speed, and get on the power early to get a good run up the hill. you may have to use a bit of throttle control here immediately post apex.

from there, it'll depend on what you're driving. Most road-reg cars are flat through the left hander (don't be scared of the kerb - even though it looks high, the inside wheels are unladen and it's generally the thing to hit) with a dab-n-maybe-downshift into t3 at the top of the hill. in some cars, it's better to use torque in a tallish gear across here, but RX-8's don't actually have torque, and i can't remember what we used. you can carry more speed through here than you initially think, because you never really quite get straight before you dive down the hill. Until you've run off on the (safe) gravel at least once, you can probably rest assured that you haven't carried enough speed here.
t3 also has a good kerb to clip (provided you have shocks in reasonable condition and decent rubber).

Be patient on t4 (coming off the hill), because it's very easy to get caught out as the road falls away, then miss your apex, which should be a firm clout right on top of, or even completely over the kerb, if you can tuck it in there.

That'll let you stand on it early without gathering too much understeer on the exit. if you do that, you'll have to lift or run off into the dirt just past the hillclimb turn-off, when you'll have to lift anyway. If it's flat in an M3 CSL through the t5 fast right hander, it'll be flat in an RX8 (going from mazda memory here...). Again, good kerb, especially if you want to climb on it early and work a giggly drift all the way through the corner... that's not so good for your speed, but it's almost as much fun as doing it the proper way...

the approach to the tight left hander is similar to t1, really. don't be too literal with the road edge. the line runs from the inside left to roughly where the road junction is on the right hand edge (which marks your turn-in point). Brake as straight as you can there (a little earlier than it looks like you should brake, too), and, again, it's a later apex than it seems like it should be.

Get it too early and you'll run wide. brake too late and you'll run wide, too, but going backwards... especially in an RX-8 with all the gizmos switched off (which you need to do if you want a lap time). RX-8s have good diffs and a linear delivery, so you should be able to stand on it pretty hard out of there.

don't feel you need to commit to the inside ripple strip on the next, more open left hander. some cars (usually heavier gruntier rear-drivers) work better taking the first part of the left hander a little wider than others then, on the same lock, come back to get the second part. Others have the agility to get both. Doesn't much matter, as long as you get into the right road position for the right hander onto the back straight and let it flow, giving yourself the widest possible corner.

Getting down under, say, mid-13s to 14s, on road rubber will usually mean the thing's carrying enough pace to need either a slight lift or, at worst, a brake brush. this'll just get some weight back over the front axle to give it initial bite, then you need to stand on it, hard, and be prepared to do some wheelwork over the bumpier, post-kerb part of the exit. also, the exit's wider than the entrance, and the run-off's pretty good, so don't be frightened to give it the berries on the exit. there's plenty of road there, and the exit kerb's OK.

Keep it pinned, natch, down the shute, and you can brake pretty late, but be careful of the bumps on the approach to the last turn. If you're on your own, sacrifice a little bit of braking potential to maximise your corner exit onto the main straight.

Come off the brake a bit, deep into the braking, to give yourself some front spring travel back, then track around the outside of the track edge, until you've roughly got the turn-in-point, apex and ripple strip all lined up. then point and squirt, keep changing gears and bob's your uncle. A lot of cars are, surprisingly, quicker up the shute if they're left a gear taller (EVO, any V8 etc). wouldn't guarantee that with a rotary, though...

Also, depending on how many laps you're running at a time and what pads/fluid you've got, you might want to brake a little easier into the last turn to keep a bit of pedal under you for the faster t1... just a thought.

It's technical, yes, but it ain't exactly a thrill a minute, like a Phillip Island or a Bathurst. On the upside, it's cheap and safe. and it's getting bumpier..."


ps. Here are a few nice videos of an RX8 Auto doing high 1:17s at Wakefield:

- Clip #1 (83Mb)
- Clip #2 (84Mb)
- Clip #3, Out-takes (18Mb)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,719 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Originally posted by DavidM@Jan 27 2005, 10:28 PM
Though, I don't think that one would see any difference in the stoping distance between a regular and track models if the brakes are cold on both cars (well, not cold as such, but just not over-heated). Well, that is if they both had the same tyre footprint.

I did read Stoptech's review of the various Z33 brakes on their web site.

They said between the Touring and the Track, and 60mph, there was 1ft of difference in a single stop. But, when you repeated it a couple of times the Touring started increasing that braking distance while the Track was pretty consistent.

Of course, there's more than 1 corner in a 15 minute session at Wakefield Park so I was driving with a brake conservation mentality. While there's nothing to hit, I still didn't want to come off and shred my super-soft tyres and try to get my cornering right so I don't go into corners too hot.

With the confidence that the discs can dissipate more heat, and that the pads can stand more punishment because of their increased size and more even pressure, and the caliper itself providing better cooling characteristics to the pad and the fluid, I would have punished them a bit more.


As I said, next time I go down to Wakefield I will make a point of fading my brakes out in one session, just to see how long it takes and how abusive I need to be.
 
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Top