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Discussion Starter #1
I had my car serviced just before the flywheel installation, and it turns out that my front rotors were undersized (I knew they'd been dodgy for a while, but hadn't had time to machine them yet). Also, front pads were on their way out (still had about half a cm of material) so I decided to do a full swap.

I lined up a set of DBA LongLife slotted rotors (the 4000's are not available for the Touring) and finally installed the DS2500s in the front.

After trying my best to emulate Ferodo's bedding-in technique (its hard to brake at 50% of race pace in the middle of the afternoon on Sydney roads) I took them for a bit of a run.

Its hard to really stress your braking package on street use, but I am quite happy with how they coped with a spirited run through the Royal National Park and up Macquarie Pass. Slightly better initial bite, and good feel throughout. No fade, of course, but the stock hardware didn't fade in those conditions either. When I can do track work I'll be sure to post in.

There is no problems with using them for commuting, either. They're not wooden and lacking when cold. Even after driving for an hour solid on the Hume Highway at 2AM (so at around 6 degrees ambient doing 150km/hr) the car still pulled up nice and hard when I stopped at the Pheasant's Nest servo.

The front rotors were around $220 each (which is cheaper than Nissan's $250 each) so even if you're trying to save money they're a better buy than stock.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I don't think I'm getting any extra noise out of them, but with my other mods its very hard to hear anything these days. :) At least I don't have semi-slicks on the car anymore, or otherwise they'd be competing as well.

The rotors I got a purely slotted. No cross-drilling, and no fancy hats.
 

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Thanks for the info on the rotors Alan. I'd like to catch up with you one weekend and go for a run up the Old Pacific Hwy (preferred as its a great and smooth road) or National Park (preferred as its down south closer to where I live) and have the opportunity to check out your new braking package. Let me know if you're keen for one weekend.

So I assume that the rotor is the same diameter and thickness as the stock Touring rotor?
Is it possible to put on a slightly larger rotor onto the Touring model while maintaining use of the stock caliper?
I wonder how this rotor would go with the stock pads in terms of feel and braking performance compared to the OEM setup?
Does the rotor material / type have a dramatic effect on feel via the brake pedal, or is feel more a function of the type of fluid and pad used and the integrity of the brake lines?
I have read that a slotted rotor is usefull in dissipating gases that build up between the pad and rotor when on the track, but is there any benefit what so ever in the slotted rotor for general street use - ie daily driving and the occasional blast around the twisties every 2nd weekend?
Does the slotted rotor have an effect on the pad wear in day to day driving?

Sorry for all the questions, but I am fairly excited that I may be able to buy a good performance rotor for less than the malley bull charges that Nissan applies.

I'll go and do a search for these rotors to see what else I can find out about them.
 

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[/quote]


Someone sells a kit that offers a relocation of the stock caliper to fit an enlarged disc setup. However, as far as the benefits go, I believe problems are going to arise with fading issues, as the stock single-piston calipers may not be stong enough to stop the larger diameter rotor.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
The rotor sizes are the same. They're a direct replacement.

Most of the literature I've seen say that slotted rotors are meant to improve initial bite, as well as making pad wear more even (aside from the outgassing KY mentioned).

I forgot to mention that I flushed my brake fluid with Motul RBF600 (the car's running a lot of Motul these days), which also helps resist fade.

Once again, I'm going to need to hit the track before I'm going to see the full benefits of the gear. But, hopefully, it means I can keep up with a stock-braked Track around Wakefield Park for a bit longer. :)


I'd be up for a bit of a squirt one night. I'm trying to sort out the Unichip install and tune at the moment. CRD comes highly recommended; while it is pricey what really concerns me is the 1 day turnaround. Its near impossible to leave CRD without a lift. :(

When the Unichip goes in, though, I'll be making a trip to WSID to see if I can finally get my lump in to the 13's.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Originally posted by Jetpilot718@May 24 2005, 12:05 AM
the stock single-piston calipers may not be stong enough to stop the larger diameter rotor.


I'm tempted to swap out my front rotors for the multi-pot alloy calipers from a Z32 TT.

The Touring calipers are parts-bin specials from the 180SX, and its quite a common low-cost upgrade on most Silvias to put Z32 calipers on. More pistons and lower unsprung weight (not sure about swept area, but it won't be any less) - its not that bad a deal.
 

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[/quote]

1 day to tune the Unichip sounds ridiculous, especially when you consider that I say the guys at Autotech do it in under 1/2 hour. I understand that CRD want you to leave the car with them so that they can install the Unichip when it fits into their schedule during the day, but I read their 1 day request as arrogance and showing no respect to their customer.

WRT going fo a drive on a weeknight, I'm not really keen on that as I cannot detect the cops in the dark - licence preservation is crucial. I prefer my weekend drives during daylight hours, when I can spot the cops a long way away and hit the anchors when necessary.

I'd be interested in going to WSID with you as I want to break into the 13's also.
Are they doing Wed night drags again or are they still running the Sat drags during the day?
 

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[/quote]

My braking needs are not that great on the street and I rearly track the car, so the current package works just fine. Although, whenever I encounter a long downhill twistie section of bitumen, brake fade from my stock Touring brakes is allways in the back of my mind. Thus I usually drive much more conservatively downhill than I would going up the same road.

I'll wait and see what Scathing has to say once he tracks his current brake set up, before I get too excited about the DBA rotors / DS2500 pad combo.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Originally posted by KY350@May 24 2005, 08:16 PM
1 day to tune the Unichip sounds ridiculous, especially when you consider that I say the guys at Autotech do it in under 1/2 hour.  I understand that CRD want you to leave the car with them so that they can install the Unichip when it fits into their schedule during the day


You sure that AutoTech can do it in 30 minutes? It sounds a bit off, considering the quotes everyone else is giving me.

I called up a couple of people on APS' list of approved Unichip tuners, and they're all floating at around the 4 hour mark. When I asked other enthusiasts, they estimated around 4 hours as well.

Given the description the guys provided on what they do (full power runs, as well as loading the car at various rev points to beef up the midrange) 30 minutes sounds optimistic. Your average trio of dyno runs to measure maximum power output (i.e. no tuning) at a dyno day takes more than 5 minutes.


As for the cruise, my weekends are pretty solid for the next fortnight or so. I'll have to see after that.
 

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Scathing - do you remember how long it too to tune Mikebn's Z and MChapmans Z on that APS demo day. Admittedly, I was checking out other peoples rides and chatting most of the time, rather than paying attention to how long the tuning took.
Perhaps I was way too optemistic and the tuning may take several hours. If that's the case, then CRD asking you to leave the car for 1 day is realistic.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I left the APS Demo day at around 2PM because of other commitments.

When I saw the car on the rollers, they were more demo'ing what they do than actually tuning.

If I remember correctly they basically correct the A/F and timing in 500RPM increments (I can't remember the Unichip's granularity, perhaps Peter might be able to refresh our memories?).
 

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Scathing Wrote:
When I saw the car on the rollers, they were more demo'ing what they do than actually tuning.

Scathing, the demo'ing was the tuning, my car had the Unichip installed before everyone got there then when it was time it was put on the rollers and the tuning / demoing done.

I guess you wanted to see where and how fuel and timing were removed and added. I wanted to see this as well, but I forgot to go look at the laptop he was working on it.

The Unichip install was done quickly it only took about 30mins and tuning was about the same. Even if we round it up to 2 hours total then thats still a long way off your quotes. Mike's took longer because of his pod air filter.

If I remember correctly they basically correct the A/F and timing in 500RPM increments (I can't remember the Unichip's granularity, perhaps Peter might be able to refresh our memories?).

He initially adjusted A/F and timing in 500rpm increments at full throttle position. I believe the software would have filled in the gaps between the values he enters and then he went back and fine tuned the areas which the software didnt get spot on. He also went back and tuned all the partial throttle positions A/F ratio and timing.
 

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As, Ive decided to get more involved in basic motorsport events, I'm now going to get the DS2500 to use with my stock rotors, until the rotors are dead. I'm getting these pads in a effort to reduce brake fade characteristics from my piddly Touring brake pakage when on the track.
Once the stock rotors are cactus, I will buy the DBA longlife slotted rotors. Also, I'll get my fluid replaced to RBF600.

Scathing - can you tell me what you thing of your DBA rotor / DS2500 / RBF600 combo on the track?
Also, where can I purchase the DS2500's from and how much should I expect to pay for the fronts and rears?
 

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As far as im aware brake fade is a result of the small rotors not being able to transfer the heat into the air and as a result the heat builds up and the brake fluid boils. The air bubbles in the fluid build up and stop the pedal pressure from transferring the brake fluid to the brakes resulting in increased pedal travel, less braking and longer stopping distances.

So to reduce brake fade you need to increase the brakes ability to withstand heat and get rid of it. Motul brake fluid will increase their ability to withstand heat as it has a higher boiling point. Better ventilated rotors (dba) and some ducting would allow them to get rid of the heat better. And from what we’ve seen here if you use the stock pads at the track they will glaze over, gases will build up and the discs will warp.

You’ve already covered most of these area so you should be pretty good.

Peter mentioned that Motul brake fluid has a higher boiling point because of the fewer additives in it, these additives would normally stop water from building up in the fluid so you'll have to bleed your brakes more often to get the water out and your brake components may deteriorate quicker over time.

If your interested in a brake duct NTech Engineering has one, but im sure you could do one yourself or get Peter to do one.

http://www.ntechengineering.com/index.cfm?...d=6&model_id=10

 

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Be careful with those Ferodos on the track. I have learned an important leason with them over the past couple years.

First, I have a US Track model with Brembo brakes. So, what has happened to me may not happen to you. I use the Ferodo pads only on the track. I tried them on the street, but they were just too noisy. Apparently, this is uncommon. Most do not have noise issues with them. Also, the friction surface of the pad is different than most. The inside of the pad (further into the radius of the rotor) is straight cut, not arc'ed. So, it will wear the rotors different than other pads. Starting with the Ferodo's, you should not have a problem switching to another pad. However, if you start with a different pad, and then switch to the Ferodo's, you may have an issue. The other pad may cause a "lip" on the inside and outside of the rotor. This will interfere with the Ferodo's due to their shape.

Also, lets talk temperature. Every time I have been to the track on my Ferodo's, I have come away with uneven pad deposits on the rotors. This causes the brakes to shudder on the street. Essentially, I am over heating the pad and it is making excess deposits on the rotor. Over time, these deposits wear away, but it is still a bad sign. But then again, I am punchy with the brakes on the track.

I need to do some more testing to determine for certain that I am over heating the pads (limit is around 750 degrees F). I plan to get some temperature sensitive paint (www.raceshopper.com) to figure out the actual temp of the rotors. If they are too hot, I will ditch the DS2500s in favor of the Hawk HP+ or other Hawk compunds (the shape of the Hawk track pads will match my Hawk street pads, so no worries on the "lip").

If you have issues with pad deposits after tracking, they will go away with time (about two weeks). However, you might consider using DS3000s on the track or getting some front brake cooling ducts (www.ntechengineering.com - I have not tried this cooling duct product).

Good luck and congrats on the brake upgrade.
 

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Just doing some research on the subject and StopTech lists 2 types of brake fade. In addition to the brake fluid boiling there is another fade in which "the thermal capacity of the brake pad is exceeded losing its friction capability due largly to the binding agents gassing out".

I knew you needed track oriented pads with higher metal content that can withstand higher temps and not glaze over but I didnt know this causes a different type of brake fade. Learn something new everyday. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I plan to get some temperature sensitive paint (www.raceshopper.com) to figure out the actual temp of the rotors.
I would suggest getting one of those laser pointer temperature gauges (assuming they cover the range of temperature necessary).

That way you can check the temperature at various parts of the rotor, as well as other components. Checking the temperature at different points of your tyre's surface can tell you if you're running the right amount of pressure (the temperature should be even across the face).
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I chose the DS2500s as they're a good "semi-track" pad. They still work well enough at street temperatures, while have enough range to cope with track work.

My DS2500s squeal at low temperature, and they dust up like you wouldn't believe, but I knew that when I bought them.

I picked mine up from Competition Friction (as the official Ferodo suppliers in Australia) for around $200 an end. The rears were slightly cheaper, but they average $200. They don't make pads specifically, so mine had to be laser cut (and later filed down).

If we can get a "tech day" we can see if our pads are the same. If so, Comp Friciton has my old backing plates so you can just order from them. But, since there are 2 part numbers for Touring brakes and pads, we might not have the same pads.


If I were to separate track pads from street pads I'd run at least DS3000's, but those things need a noticable amount of heat before they pull up. The NSCC boys, who used to love the Ferodo DS range, are now flocking to the Project Mu pads for "pure track" use.


The braking combo has worked out quite well. I gave them a thorough working over at that Eastern Creek supersprint and they didn't fade. Didn't have any issues at Wakefield either, but it was raining so I wasn't going flat chat.
 
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