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Healthcare is not a basic human right. The poorest people of this country have better healthcare than royalty of 100 years ago had. Healthcare exists because of a lot of research and development. To say that every human has a right to that now, is like saying that we shouldn't be allowed to patent things. So, if you invent something that can benefit other people, it should automatically become public property? I know we're talking more about services than intellectual properties, but it's along the same reasoning. I think the source of our problems is that people all think they have a right to whatever is AVAILABLE.

This is a post from another forum by a doctor who was asked if healthcare would reach a natural limit or just grow to be over 50% of this country's GNP:
am of the opinion that we will reach a natural limit. It won't be long before most Americans come to understand what I already do. Just because we can do something health-care wise, doesn't mean we should. Rationing care happens every single day. It happens in our VA system. It happens in our military system. It happens in our nation's emergency departments taking care of the poor. It hasn't happened for all of us with insurance for two important reasons:

1) There is no transparency in the system. You cannot walk into your doctor's office, look at the menu, and together with your "waiter," select what you are and are not willing to pay for. Even your doctor doesn't know the final price you (and/or your insurance company) will pay until the bills are generated. When those making the decisions don't know the costs, you can't expect cost-conscious (economically sound) decision-making to occur.

2) The second reason is the third party payor system. People rightfully think, "I want that MRI no matter what it costs because hey, I'm not paying for it, my insurance is."

Our nation simply cannot afford to pay 25% of our GDP for healthcare. It will bankrupt the system. These crazy graphs where people project past health care cost increases into the future are like the graphs people drew in 1999 for future growth of the NASDAQ; they don't acknowledge the fact that trees don't grow to the sky.

Our nation will soon have to decide whether health care is a right or a privilege, and if we decide it is a right, we will have to decide how much of it is a right. We cannot afford all the health care we can consume.

Most Americans think the issue is socialized medicine vs a privatized model. This isn't the issue at all. The issue is what we as a society are willing to pay for, because we're all paying for each other, either through medicare/medicaid, or through our insurance pools. Are we willing to keep the guy with a 5% chance of walking out of the hospital alive on a ventilator in an ICU for another 3 months? Are we willing to pay for another surgery and two more rounds of chemotherapy for a breast cancer patient with a life expectancy of 6 months? Are we willing to let that 24 week preemie die, or will we spend a million dollars on it before it ever leaves the ICU even though we already know it will likely have permanent brain damage and life long disability? Lots of tough questions; no good answers. It is very difficult for patients' families and their doctors to choose the economically sound option BECAUSE THEY DON'T CONSIDER ANY ECONOMIC RAMIFICATIONS WHEN THEY MAKE THESE DECISIONS. It will be up to someone (committees and bureaucrats most likely) blinded to the individual circumstances to make these decisions, and the doctors, patients, and families will fight tooth and nail for all they can get out of the system for the patient.

I've mentioned before that I have done some charity work in Guatemala where the costs were very transparent and where there were no third party payors. Sick patients went home to die. Heart attacks were treated with aspirin, not bypass surgery. We all did the best we could given the economic circumstances. It was hard to watch 4 infants go home to die in one month, but I sometimes wonder if there is some wisdom there, at least economically speaking.
 

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Toilets and public sewers are not a basic human right either if you go with your example that royalty did not have them 100 years ago, but our government provides that service now.

Times change, and the fact that I can show up at a hospitol an get medical attention without healthcare leads me to believe it is a basic human right. If it weren't, the doctors and nurses would look for your insurance card at the emergency room and if you did not have one, drag you out to the parking lot to die. That's what would happen if I went to Wal-mart to buy food and did not have money to pay for it right?
 

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Then our government finds the money. They had no problem doing that to spend $1billion a day in Iraq for absolutely no reason.
 

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Health care is a basic human right.It is necessary to sustain,life and health.And should be performed without discrimination.
47 million in the U.S.,lack coverage.Health insurance premiums have increased 87 per cent since 2000.
No one has a right to the fruits of another person's labor. In order for "healthcare" to be a right, those who provide said care must be compelled to provide their services.

Healthcare is not a right any more than having transportation is a right. Just because I have a list of needs (food, shelter etc.), doesn't mean I'm entitled to demand all those around me provide those things I need. For instance, my right to eat doesn't give me the right to take food from my neighbor or his/her money to buy food.

Many who make these arguments like to think of themselves as "charitable" but once we demand things from our government, we are talking about other people's money. Charity with other people's money isn't.
 

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No one has a right to the fruits of another person's labor. In order for "healthcare" to be a right, those who provide said care must be compelled to provide their services.

Healthcare is not a right any more than having transportation is a right. Just because I have a list of needs (food, shelter etc.), doesn't mean I'm entitled to demand all those around me provide those things I need. For instance, my right to eat doesn't give me the right to take food from my neighbor or his/her money to buy food.

Many who make these arguments like to think of themselves as "charitable" but once we demand things from our government, we are talking about other people's money. Charity with other people's money isn't.
Everything a government does is from the fruit of your labor. the politicians aren't paying out of their pocket. where do you think the money came from? you paid for it. when the government paves a road you paid for it. when they put in a new street light you paid for it. it is just that some things are seen as for the good of all and some things are for the good of a few. health care is currently seen as something that one should be able to pay for oneself. i espouse the insanely left field view that it might be one of the things we try and include in the "general services" budget, if you get my drift.

we are only here for a short time...we ought to try and look out for one another medically to the same degree as ANY other mass benefit financial responsibility. costly yes, but i bet if you knew what you were really paying for, you'd redirect a few funds so folk could see a doctor.
 

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I feel sorry for some of you.You're lack of compassion for fellow human beings who has medical needs.I can't find the words I think of for you.I only hope you never enter any field of medical services or employment.May you blessed, to live a good healthy life.
 

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I feel sorry for some of you.You're lack of compassion for fellow human beings who has medical needs.I can't find the words I think of for you.I only hope you never enter any field of medical services or employment.May you blessed, to live a good healthy life.
Cliff, don't tell me you're off the wagon. I'll climb through this computer....
 

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Everything a government does is from the fruit of your labor. the politicians aren't paying out of their pocket. where do you think the money came from? you paid for it. when the government paves a road you paid for it. when they put in a new street light you paid for it. it is just that some things are seen as for the good of all and some things are for the good of a few. health care is currently seen as something that one should be able to pay for oneself. i espouse the insanely left field view that it might be one of the things we try and include in the "general services" budget, if you get my drift.

we are only here for a short time...we ought to try and look out for one another medically to the same degree as ANY other mass benefit financial responsibility. costly yes, but i bet if you knew what you were really paying for, you'd redirect a few funds so folk could see a doctor.
My point was A: Healthcare is not a right. B: charity with other people's money is just politics and the two should not be confused. Yes we all pay for roads but that doesn't make roads a right either.

Look at the Bill of Rights. It's a list of what the government can't do, not a list of what services government must provide. (With the exception of a lawyer / jury and that's only because the government is using tax dollars to go after the accused.)

BTW, until we are all treated equally under the tax code, I don't think the public can have an honest and open debate about how much money the government should spend on anything. We will still debate, sure, but so long as the majority of the population can vote money out of their rich neighbors' wallets and purses, we will be left with charitable-sounding politicians offering public policies that amount to "All in favor of that rich guy in the corner paying for our stuff say "I"."

It's easy to say "we" should do this or that. But if we all shouldered a proportional part of the burden (i.e. national sales tax) the debate over the size and scope of government would change drastically. Until then we will be left with much of the electorate voting for things they pay little or nothing for.
 

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I feel sorry for some of you.You're lack of compassion for fellow human beings who has medical needs.I can't find the words I think of for you.I only hope you never enter any field of medical services or employment.May you blessed, to live a good healthy life.
One more time...


Charity with other people's money isn't charity (or compassion), it's politics, and the two should not be confused.
 

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I fail to see how the money we give the government every paycheck is other people's money.

I also do not see how health care should be the burden of employers in america. Perhaps during the 40's, 50's and 60's when someone could go work for a business or company and retire from that same company they started with 40 years earlier. This does not happen anymore, the average worker in america changes companies something like 10 times. What happens when the employee is in between jobs? Purchase cobra at some astronomical amount?

This cost is a big factor for american companies not competitive in the world market and hence the reason they are moving to Mexico and China.

Government does not need to pay for this for me, however they need to come up with some plan to make it affordable to everyone.
 

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I fail to see how the money we give the government every paycheck is other people's money.
Ok then. Use the money you give to the government every paycheck and fund all the things you suggest. I don't know how much tax you pay, but I suspect your money, out of your paycheck, will not be enough to pay for socialized health care. That will require other people's money from other people's income.
 

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Ok then. Use the money you give to the government every paycheck and fund all the things you suggest. I don't know how much tax you pay, but I suspect your money, out of your paycheck, will not be enough to pay for socialized health care. That will require other people's money from other people's income.
I would love to use the money the gov takes from me to pay for my healthcare, they should give me that option.

I assume you were never in a situation where you were between jobs without medical coverage. You also have not answered the question as to why this cost needs to be put on the shoulders of businesses in America.
 

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I would love to use the money the gov takes from me to pay for my healthcare, they should give me that option.

I assume you were never in a situation where you were between jobs without medical coverage. You also have not answered the question as to why this cost needs to be put on the shoulders of businesses in America.
If I had my way, you would be able to use your money for healthcare, schools etc., instead of having it ran through the federal government first.

I have been in between jobs before. Looking back, I probably should have been worried about healthcare, but I was in my mid 20's and still thought I was invincible. My main concern, during that time, was keeping my bills paid and stretching my meager savings long enough to get a new job.

I don't think that business should be forced by the federal government to pay for healthcare, but I do think that it should be negotiated before employment just like salary and any other benefits. If business wants to compete for the best workers, competition will force them to include healthcare with the other benefits they offer employees.
 

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**** no.Some of these insensitive people,I lack words to describe them.
I didn't mean to sound insensitive. I would like to see everyone get their healthcare needs taken care of, and I think it is possible if we go about it in the right way. I just don't think we can all claim it as a basic human right and expect our government to "find the money" to foot the bill.

On a side note: If people are so concerned with healthcare, why do they do such a terrible job of maintaining their bodies? I see a problem with someone who is 100 lbs over weight and smokes their whole life, then expects to have a small fortune donated to them to sustain them through bypass sugery and other treatments. It's like if the government decided that car maintenance was a 'basic human right', where would be the motivation to change the oil in your vehicle on a regular basis? After all, you know that Uncle Sam will foot the bill to sustain it at all costs.

I'm insensitive because I see people bitch about not getting handouts for healthcare. But, they are saying this as they are taking their 4 year old to McDonald's for a happy meal with 70g of saturated fat and an addiction-satisfying beverage of high fructose corn syrup and caffeine.
 

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If I had my way, you would be able to use your money for healthcare, schools etc., instead of having it ran through the federal government first.

I have been in between jobs before. Looking back, I probably should have been worried about healthcare, but I was in my mid 20's and still thought I was invincible. My main concern, during that time, was keeping my bills paid and stretching my meager savings long enough to get a new job.

I don't think that business should be forced by the federal government to pay for healthcare, but I do think that it should be negotiated before employment just like salary and any other benefits. If business wants to compete for the best workers, competition will force them to include healthcare with the other benefits they offer employees.

I didn't mean to sound insensitive. I would like to see everyone get their healthcare needs taken care of, and I think it is possible if we go about it in the right way. I just don't think we can all claim it as a basic human right and expect our government to "find the money" to foot the bill.

On a side note: If people are so concerned with healthcare, why do they do such a terrible job of maintaining their bodies? I see a problem with someone who is 100 lbs over weight and smokes their whole life, then expects to have a small fortune donated to them to sustain them through bypass sugery and other treatments. It's like if the government decided that car maintenance was a 'basic human right', where would be the motivation to change the oil in your vehicle on a regular basis? After all, you know that Uncle Sam will foot the bill to sustain it at all costs.

I'm insensitive because I see people bitch about not getting handouts for healthcare. But, they are saying this as they are taking their 4 year old to McDonald's for a happy meal with 70g of saturated fat and an addiction-satisfying beverage of high fructose corn syrup and caffeine.
Your both right, it's all effed up. I do not think we will be able to fix it in this forum either.

I agree it may not be a basic human right, but no one is denied medical attention in the USA. Infact there are laws against it. That means that those of us that do have health insurance are footing the bill for those that do not have insurance. All I am saying whether the government pays for it or not, things need to be balanced out. As Z1 asked earlier as to why he should pay for everyone else's healthcare, the answer is you already are.
 

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Your both right, it's all effed up. I do not think we will be able to fix it in this forum either.

I agree it may not be a basic human right, but no one is denied medical attention in the USA. Infact there are laws against it. That means that those of us that do have health insurance are footing the bill for those that do not have insurance. All I am saying whether the government pays for it or not, things need to be balanced out. As Z1 asked earlier as to why he should pay for everyone else's healthcare, the answer is you already are.
I wasn't asking why I should pay for others' healthcare per se. I was questioning the feeling of "entitlement" that I believe to be the root cause of many of our social policies and problems.

I learned a lot from both of my grandfathers but one of the best lessons that my grandpa Jim taught me was short and to the point. I was venting to him, about something my parents wouldn't give me. I don't even remember what it was, but he listened to me vent and just when I thought I was going to get some sympathy for my plight he said: "Nobody owes you ****. The sooner you learn that, the easier your life will be." To make a long story short, he was right and my life has been much better for having accepted that fact. I believe other's lives would be easier if they understood this fact also.

It's not that I have never needed help or given help to those in need. It's just that when I have needed help, I never thought anyone had an obligation to help me out of a problem they never caused.

The feeling of entitlement that seems to be growing among or population is dangerous because it runs counter to the rugged- individualism that made this country different from others in history. We are moving away from being a nation of people that basically want government to leave us alone. As we move toward becoming a nation of people that expect the government to take care of us, we move closer to other forms of government that history has proven to be inferior.

Just read Marx and Engle. You will find that same feeling of "entitlement" when they explain why those who have little are entitled to take what they need from those who have more. (For the common good of course.)
 
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