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Discussion Starter #1
Originally posted by GQ626 at the "other" forum:

OK, I think the cat is out of the bag on this crank angle sensor wire issue. APS has posted a detailed schematic on their website, so I feel this should be read by anyone that is running F/I on their motor. Especially those are building some very expensive forged motors.

There is some speculation, and apparently some testing by APS has confirmed this as well....that there is some kind of interference or anamoly with our crank angle sensor wire. Essentially, there is some noise in the signal that goes to the ECU, and under certain circumstances, this can generate a false or muddy crank angle input to the ECU. Obvisouly, if this happens, there is a chance that the coils may fire before the pistons are at TDC, and could contribute to detonation/preignition. Peter has also described this as "scattered ignition timing". It is something that occurs only under certain conditions, and only on certain cars. Some cars exhibit no anomolies...others do.

But APS felt it was important enough to include a new shielded crank angle sensor wire in their kit. You can see this on their website.

So...just to be safe, it would be HIGHLY ADVISIBLE for everyone with the Greddy and PE kits to immediately swap their unshielded crank angle sensor wire with a new shield wire. I would hate to see these new forged motors start blowing up due to this potential problem.

I was also thinking that some diodes on the line would also be helpful...what do the electrical experts think?
Most of us knew about this well before the announcement, but agreed to keep it privileged information out of respect for APS. I'm not sure what brought it out at this particular time, but nevertheless, its info that all TT (except APS) owners need and should address.

As suggested, many other TT owners are looking to replace the existing wire with a shielded cable and reroute it, similar to APS.

Peter,

Does APS plan to sell the components for this modification?

G
 

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Its not as simple as adding a shielded wire.The APS engine management relived the stock ECM of control over the Crank Sensor completely.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Mother! Well, hopefully someone (hopefully APS) will be able to sell us a "fix" for our rolling time bombs :lol:

G
 

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It funny that most of the sites and the people on them are willing to help people so they dont blow there engines . But if there is money to be made on it . They will stand by and watch motors blow up and keep things a secret . This just an example
 

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Originally posted by booger@Dec 31 2004, 09:33 AM
It funny that most of the sites and the people on them are willing to help people so they dont blow there engines . But if there is money to be made on it . They will stand by and watch motors blow up and keep things a secret . This just an example

Interesting comment and I'm not sure how to read/take this post.

I have over a the last 6 months tried to help people on this issue though as the old saying goes ''you can lead a horse to water though you can't make it drink''

Thanks

Peter
 

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Originally posted by booger@Dec 30 2004, 05:33 PM
It funny that most of the sites and the people on them are willing to help people so they dont blow there engines . But if there is money to be made on it . They will stand by and watch motors blow up and keep things a secret . This just an example

this issue was alluded at least about 2 months ago on another board, if i remmeber correctly.. its been out there..
 

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Originally posted by aps+Dec 31 2004, 03:06 AM-->
<!--QuoteBegin-booger
@Dec 31 2004, 09:33 AM
It funny that most of the sites and the people on them are willing to help people so they dont blow there engines . But if there is money to be made on it . They will stand by and watch motors blow up and keep things a secret . This just an example

Interesting comment and I'm not sure how to read/take this post.

I have over a the last 6 months tried to help people on this issue though as the old saying goes ''you can lead a horse to water though you can't make it drink''

Thanks

Peter

Peter, could you please explain this and what should we do to protect the engine?

we value your input in the matter :)

Thanks,

Az
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Fellas, let's just face it. Its a catch 22 for APS. As with all business, you need to protect your company's assets and get a return on them. If APS had gone to market and told everyone to merely change this and reroute that, what would they have received in return? Some people might say that we would have bought the parts from them, but let's face it. This industry is cut throat and its not APS' fault that other manufacturers didn't find the same problems. They didn't get to where they are now by offering privileged R&D info to their competitors.

Peter has alluded to many of the flaws in our platform and all the APS dealers knew of this unshielded cable. Where were they? If its such a simple fix, why didn't our tuners merely procure the parts and install it? Simple: its not a perfect world and someone has to pay the bills. APS now needs to decide how they will cope with the situation. They can either sell components of their kit or keep it all bundled. Although I would love to get a hold of their fuel solution, it won't surprise me to see them staying the path. Its management's call . . . and if its business as usual, the answer lies in $. That's how business is run. Do I agree with it since I'm on the other side of the fence? Not necessarily, but I too am in an industry full of trade secrets and I understand the value of R&D since my company spends two times more than all our competitors combined.

Think back when we were in school. If by the grace of god you actually studied night and day for a test, only to have a person try to copy your work, would that be fair? And would you divulge all you knew?

G
 

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I completely agree with you on this 350G. I also wish APS would sell the Fuel/EMS upgrade as a package. If the APS was out when I bought the kit I would have purchased that setup but I not going too pull my setup sell it at a loss and purchase one of the APS kits.

It seems that the limit to thier production is Garret turbos not lack of a market. Peter always refers to that as the limiting factor. So I don't see APS losing market share buy selling this seperate, due to a supply limit. Of course this is thier show and they will run it as it works best for them.

I don't feel that Peter has done anything but try to help us within the confines of his job. Just one question Peter, If we start bugging you guys enough will it aid in the release of the Fuel/EMS package? :biggrin:
Gary
 

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They're are people all over the forums wanting to purchase components from APS and it would be wise to take their money and sell them the parts.

Many of these people either one, already have purchased kits, or two APS doesn't make a kit for their vehicle... If APS doesn't sell them, someone will develop a solution and take their money...

I value Peter contributions to the forum, and thank him but the two issues shouldn't be confused. It's like Nissan saying you can't purchase OEM parts, just the whole car...? Now what would all of those G35 guys do with out the Z-tube... lol

.02
 

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APS is not allowed to sell the uni-chip ecm piggy back in itself only as part of the kit,it is some legal binding agreement between the two companies.The unichip can only make up a percentage of the total cost of the kit.So I highly doubt you will see APS selling the unichip anytime soon. As far as APS and Peter releasing the information to the public, that was their right and decision to make.Why would they share trade secrets during production and development?did Greddy share and R&D secrets?Did PE?Is JWT sharing his secrets?Or Stillen?Heck I remember Greddy and Vortech ECMs comming out in a locked mode where they were not tunable at first..
As far as anyone feeiling that APS should have released their tunning secret for the **** of it to prevent people with F/I engines from blowing their engines, is like saying to someone "why didnt you tell me I would break my neck if I jumped from a 5 story roof"? Anyone that F/I'd their 350Z motors knew,or should have been informed prior to doing so that things can and do go wrong sometimes.It was a risk they were willing to take.
Just because someone put on a Greddy or PE TT kit way before APS found what they feel is a problem that the others did not address,why does that make them the bad guy?Should'nt the fingers be pointed at the manufacturer you chose that DID NOT find the problem during THEIR R&D??
 

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Ok...I was wrong in making the statement I made . I understand the right for a company to make money and hold what they know a secret .
My statement [ I guess ] was made out of frustration . And Im sure there are alot of guys out there , like my self , that are learning this stuff as we go .
Alot of you have done this for year , and of cource your going to know far more than I ever will . whats that saying....I forgot more about this than you will ever know...
 

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Originally posted by booger@Dec 31 2004, 10:27 PM
Ok...I was wrong in making the statement I made . I understand the right for a company to make money and hold what they know a secret .
My statement [ I guess ] was made out of frustration . And Im sure there are alot of guys out there , like my self , that are learning this stuff as we go .
    Alot of you have done this for year  , and of cource your going to know far more than I ever will . whats that saying....I forgot more about this than you will ever know...

Guys, Just one point to remember on this issue.

APS had one US spec engineering Z car in Oz for engineering of the Z TT system and during the couse of the development period we found what we believed to be a strange though a significant problem on the engineering Z car.

Now the APS engineering team asked this question, was this a one off problem or an ongoing production related problem in the Z car, we did not know at the time, going back about 9 months ago.

We at APS decided to treat the issue as a ongoing problem related to the design and production of the Z car/engine management system in combination with APS TT FI and decided to build safety features into the APS TT system to overcome/deal with the issue. :thumbsup:

I don't see that it's APS's responsibility to engineer products to overcome problems for our competitors, that said I have had discussions with a number of forum members by way of pm who have had engine failures and pointed them in the right direction. :thumbsup:

Maybe some of you guys now see why APS products may cost a little more than some of our competitors though the APS engineering methodology is extremely thorough and well tested.

As my mentor ( A VERY WISE AND CLEVER ENGINEER) taught me 30 years ago all products are NOT necessarily created equal and it's where you finish that counts not where you start.

I think the important point here is that APS engineers have addressed all of the technical issues in the APS TT system, from a comprehensive engineered fuel system to a high volume air cooled oil pan...............thorough engineering is the difference.

One last point that you guys may or may not know, I have over many years made posts only to have some guys argue/debate a technical point, from this past experience I try where possible to avoid technical debates which are both time very consuming and also frustrating to other forum members.

If a person/persons does not want to absorb or take advantage of our many years of turbo system design and manufacturing experience then I don't waste my time as I have plenty of other work to contend with which is far more valueable to the company.

Now to finish on a more positive note APS wil release a new engine management product in 05 :surprise: which will be sold as a stand alone product, though please keep this a secret other wise I will be in serious trouble with management at APS. :banned:

Thanks

Peter
 

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Peter...Could you tell us...will a plan shielded wire running from the Crank angle sensor to the ECU , take care of the problem ?
 

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Originally posted by aalzuhair@Dec 30 2004, 08:50 PM
Peter, could you please explain this and what should we do to protect the engine?

we value your input in the matter :)

Thanks,

Az

Hey aalzuhair, glad to see you could make it over here. It seems like there are more people coming over here but it is always nice to see familiar faces. So :welcome: to the site and let others know that they can come here without fear of being banned!
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Originally posted by aps@Dec 31 2004, 08:14 AM
Now to finish on a more positive note APS wil release a new engine management product in 05 :surprise: which will be sold as a stand alone product, though please keep this a secret other wise I will be in serious trouble with management at APS. :banned: 

Thanks

Peter

Very interested . . . will it address some of the issues we're finding with other FI kits :thumbsup: Like several other members, we went FI well before the APS kit was released and simply can't afford to undo the system. If money were not an issue, I would have tore off my Greddy kit and installed an APS since the cost difference really is nil compared to receiving a complete fuel & timing solution . . .

G
 

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Originally posted by Zxrage@Jan 2 2005, 02:41 AM
Hey aalzuhair, glad to see you could make it over here.  It seems like there are more people coming over here but it is always nice to see familiar faces.  So  :welcome: to the site and let others know that they can come here without fear of being banned!

Thanks man ... I'm glad to be here :)

I’m sorry for diverting from the subject, but I have to say that what happened on the “other forum� is unfortunate and unfair.

I mean if the concern or the reason behind the banning is purely business related, then it should not affect the forum since (and I’m assuming) the forum was created to share information in the first place and help in the development and creation of new products for the 350z and as a side benefit assist vendors is selling their products.

Thus, and only relating to the last point the owner of the forum could ask or demand compensation for that aforementioned side benefit since his service (forum) helped link the buyer and seller and that can be considered as a brokerage fee, but under the condition that the developer or vendor decided to directly advertise a product and not merely answering inquiries.

In addition, I think that sharing information benefits supersedes all. For example, if I buy a product and find it to be very helpful or useful then I will share that funding with other forum members, hence, creating an “unintentional infomercial� for that product. In this sense, does the owner of the forum have the right to ask for compensation? I think not

Therefore, should a product developer or a vendor gain sales indirectly from others posting about the product or by addressing the concern of one person via PM or otherwise rather than the mass public, then this can not be considered as advertisement in my opinion, since that action can only be deemed as “lending a helping hand� and is the first and only reason that any forum should be created for.

Az

btw Zxrage: that is one good looking A$$ in your sig...
 

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Thanks for the props on the sig and I totally agree with you. It seems like there was no discretion from the evil site in how they decided to ban or censor people. And as for advertising, if you are only answering questions and addressign peoples concerns then in no way should it be considered advertising. But obviously it was all about money and the disregard for treating members like they are people rather than pieces of dirt.
 

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Originally posted by aalzuhair@Dec 31 2004, 11:50 AM
Peter, could you please explain this and what should we do to protect the engine?

we value your input in the matter :)

Thanks,

Az

I will organise to write a tech feature on this issue and post it on the APS web site after the 17th of January...............it's not just a simple rectification and I need to have some futher input from APS engineering staff to clarify a number of facts pertaining to this problem. :thumbsup:

Thanks

Peter
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Any help will be appreciated . . . although I don't own an APS TT kit, I know me, along with several other long-standing members with Greddy kits, continue to push your TT for its quality and cost effectiveness. Thanks in advance!

Gary
 
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